Senate Passes House Debt Ceiling Bill To Add $450 Billion To Tax Payers

Well the Republican controlled House passed a measure that would increase the debt ceiling in trade for a budget from the Senate that would cut spending (Yeah, right. As if that is going to happen). Now the Senate has passed the measure by a vote of 64-34.

The Associated Press reports,

The legislation would temporarily suspend the $16.4 trillion limit on federal borrowing, which experts say would allow the government to borrow about $450 billion to meet interest payments and obligations like Social Security benefits and government salaries.

The deadline for Congress to act again to prevent default would likely not come until August, according to calculations by the Bipartisan Policy Center, a Washington-based think tank.

Without the bill, the Treasury Department says, the government would default on its obligations by as early as mid-February.

“Failure to pass this bill will set off an unpredictable financial panic that would plunge not only the United States, but much of the world, back into recession,” said Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont. “Every single American would feel the economic impact.”

The short-term increase in the borrowing limit was the brainchild of House Republicans, who wanted to re-sequence a series of upcoming budget battles, taking the threat of a potentially devastating government default off the table and instead setting up a clash in March over automatic across-the-board spending cuts set to strike the Pentagon and many domestic programs.

So, in effect, what has just taken place is that Congress made a bogus agreement with Democrats in the Senate and Barack Obama, in which the Democrats’ side of the agreement will never materialize and the Federal government has, in essence, stuck the American tax payer with $450 billion more in debt. With friends like this, who needs enemies?

While Boehner and company threaten “No budget, no pay,” they will be hard pressed to hold up to that when the time comes in just a few months for Senate Democrats to fulfill their part of the deal. After all, it’s hard to demonstrate intestinal fortitude when you don’t have any.

Fox News also reported,

“Senate Republicans offered several amendments, but all failed on party-line votes. Any amendments to the bill would have required the House to vote again.

Sen. Pat Toomey, R-Pa., proposed an amendment to ensure that in the case of a cash crunch the government would use available tax revenue to make sure that bondholders, Social Security recipients and the military get paid. Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio, sought to require that any immediate increase in the debt limit be paired with commensurate cuts to spending, which could be spread out over 10 years.”

Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) wanted to make sure that spending was brought under control. “I can’t imagine voting to raise the debt ceiling unless we’re going to change our ways in Washington,” Paul said during an appearance on “Fox News Sunday.” “I am proposing that we link to raising the debt ceiling — that we link a balanced budget rule, an ironclad rule that they can’t evade.”

He even said that adding “token spending cuts” to the debt ceiling measure would not win his vote and it didn’t.

“We have to change the rules and we have to say to Washington, ‘balance the budget. You have to do it by law,’ ” Paul said. “And then I’ll vote to raise the debt ceiling. But only if we have an ironclad balanced budget rule that we attach to the debt ceiling.”

From my vantage point Sen. Paul makes a valid point when he says, “They say either you raise it or the sky will fall and the end of the economy will happen. What about an in-between solution? What about we ‘spend what we take in?’ We bring in 200 billion dollars a month. Couldn’t we just spend what we have instead of saying ‘Oh, we have to shut down government?'”

Ah, but that’s Washington for you. They don’t have to live in the real world. They can just continue taxing people and printing and borrowing money on the backs of tax payers to keep their power. They won’t listen to reason, such as Sen. Paul was giving them, but it’s you and me that are on the hook for their utter incompetence.







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Husband to my wife. Father of 10. Jack of All Trades. Christian and lover of liberty. Residing in the U.S. occupied Great State of South Carolina. Follow Tim on Twitter. Tim is also the editor in chief and writer at FreedomOutpost.com

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  • Combat Veteran Seabee

    Hey boehner, what happened, obammy looked in your direction and you peed you knickers? To quote James Brown, “It’s a man’s world!” and you ain’t up to the job, move over panty waist, it’s a man’s job!

    • Sparkle58

      @Combat Veteran Seabee You hit the nail on the head in my eyes too….he talks out of both sides of his mouth now….like all the others, what a disappointment,  he has no more backbone than I have magic powers & that is nil!  We need someone like Trey Gowdy of SC or Rand Paul up there to not give an inch, they appear to not back down or away from anything…Scott sure has turned WI around….is a shame that there are none in WA w/integrity or love of the Constitution!!

      • jsexton56

        @Sparkle58  @Combat Veteran Seabee I have been watching Rand Paul also. I think he is a man of integrity. He does not back down, he is smart, and he has a father politician who believes in fiscal responsibility and living within our means. We need more like Rand Paul. My values follow those of the Tea Party people.

        • Sparkle58

          @jsexton56 @Combat Veteran Seabee..Thanks Jsexton56, at least 2) of us are on the same path in our thinking.  I know that Rand gave Hiliary what for & in no uncertain terms what he felt like she deserved, most did not have the guts to do so….And I am along the Tea Pty lines as well.

  • 1787patriot

    Is it me but I’m not sure why the debt ceiling needs to be raised if spending is going to be cut.  Even some in the GOP appear to be fools.

    • ForLiberty

      @1787patriot It’s all political theater my friend, but the joke ends up being on us.

      • Combat Veteran Seabee

        @ForLiberty  @1787patriot How ironic is it that to agree, I have to click on like, when I don’t like what the truth is showing?

      • redskin45

        @ForLiberty  @1787patriot it’s attitudes like yours that perpetuates his abuse of power….he’s laughing at you….he’s the puppetmaster….

    • bikerk

      Most of the GOP are fools and not worthy of our vote.  They are just as culpable as the democrats when it comes to tearing this nation down.  The last 20 plus years the debt ceiling has been raised in just this same manner.  Repubs say they’ll increase the debt ceiling if demos cut spending.  The demos agree, but never act when the time comes.  This has happened since Reagan and probably before that.  The same thing will happen in March.  The same exact argument.  We need to cut spending….no we need to raise the debt ceiling…and it will continue that way until we are completely bankrupt and the fed doesn’t want to play anymore.

      • Combat Veteran Seabee

        @bikerk Just name me “ONE PROMISE,” oblowhole has kept? And yet, the spineless boehner caves and agrees! On the line, he’d get fragged in a heartbeat!

        • bikerk

          Yeah…..sorry….I can’t.  Unless it was a promise to George Soros to lead the bankruptcy of the USA and lead the country into communism….maybe that’s a promise that he’s trying to keep.  Boehner tried……he did ok for a couple years….now’s he’s caved and it looks like most all the republicans are caving as well.  All I can say is store up ammo!
           
          Go Navy!

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @bikerk As we would say, “Honor and Glory,” That is the Navies motto! May you have fair winds, and following seas always! is a kind saying, meaning may your life be well! The actual Seabee motto is not “Can Do,” but rather, “Construimus Batuimus.” We Build, We Fight!” And that is the motto tattooed on my left forearm! A true old school Seabee.  It’s all servicemembers that need to remember their oath! It’s to uphold the Laws and Constitution of the United States of America! Nowhere does it say protect the president, and that is why we have the second Amendment! To protect from tyranny, from within and without, all enemies, both foreign and DOMESTIC! I will abide by my lifelong oath.  Oblowhole is becoming increasingly outnumbered, by a truly pissed off populace, he won’t have it to win, he will be the decided loser!  And not a martyr either, just a treasonous fake in our country! And then their party will dissolve in total treasonous disgrace! The winds of war are upon us!
           1,100 Green Beret’s have already sent a letter to the white house calling them out! As has the Sheriff Association of Utah with signatures of 27 Sheriffs out of 28 counties! That they are duty bound to fight and will never comply. More are coming forthwith! 
           He has no idea of the veracity of a pissed off, non fawning, non msm or himself believing people, but the the ones that see and know the truths that are being buried by his “I’m Not Worthy Crowd.!” Such pitiful maggots are they. Can’t even think for themselves, need constant direction!
           Oblowhole better tread very carefully, as America is ready to carry the big stick against his foolish, fake a $$!

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @bikerkI spelled “Navy’s” wrong. Forgive this old goat please!

        • bikerk

          LOL….not a problem old man!  I served US Navy ’80 to ’85.  USS Midway, Carrier Air Group 5, VA-56 Champs.  Worked on the flight deck as an avionics tech.  I don’t think very many liberals have any idea what they are waking up in a lot of us.  I find I have very little tolerance for it.  I have taken the oath more than once, I know what it means and I don’t swear before God Almighty lightly.  I will defend our constitution with and until my last breath and fully expect with what’s going on these days to actually do that.

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @bikerkI was still active at that time.Had a barracks fall on top of me on Oct, 23, 1983.Lebanon! I retreaded 3 times, and left for good in 2005 after being a Navspecwarcom instructor for quite a few years.! My career started in Nam in 71, went all over the world later on as a member of! Nuff said! Carrier group, I was attached to a ship once for security, not just me, but my team, and we came up to a Carrier, and ship’s company did an unrep! Damn, I was impressed! I am a jungle lover if you get my drift, river running warrior, but to watch the REAL NAVY IN ACTION!!!!! and how it was so smooth! WOW! Love you guys, and also, we got our supplies from you! You all carried them. Without the deepwater Navy or the Fighters, Bombers or awacs types, we would all be toast by now!
           I remember a sitcal for fighter support as we entered a hornets nest and were in deep kimshee. The F-14’s rolled in and normally stayed in high altitude, but one jockey wanted to impress us as he dove deep to drop a specific placement weapon. Right then and there, a little young V.C. jumped up with his ak and stood and fired on the jet. Got to admire his bravery, but not his lack of common sense, as that jet tore him in half with auto fire and then the weapons hit, he would never haver survived anyway! This was my life. 
           I’m only 60, Not that old and my eyes can still reach out and touch somebody at well over a click! ! Thousand yards. I’m still deadly with a .308, or .300 magnum! .50? No problem, as there is a shooting system to help the shooter!
            But I can still hold long and steady!
           Thanks for the air cover,wow, goes to show, you never know who you might meet and their impact on your life!
           Were you seventh fleet? Pacific? I don’t remember a carrier named midway in the 6th fleet in my time around the Med! That’s all!

        • bikerk

          @Combat Veteran Seabee  @bikerk You and I are the same age.  I was in college in 71.  My draft number was 65, but I had a knee injury when the called me for pre-induction so I was rated 4F and sent home.  In ’80 I had a tough time finding work (Carter was the sorriest excuse for a leader wasn’t he?)  I enlisted in the Navy to get back into school as I was too poor to do it any other way.  Long story short, ended up on the USS Midway CV-41….Seventh Fleet, Carrier Air Group 5.   It was forward deployed in Japan as part of the Japanese defense contract.  While not quite as distinguished as your service, it was a good teacher of what our country really was about.  I don’t even recognize our country anymore.  All my college friends have turned coat completely to the progressive party.  They, of course, have never served their country and have been completely brainwashed as a result of going into public education.  Teachers are amongst the most brainwashed people in our country.  I can’t even talk to them anymore they are too bent on trying to convert me over.  But, I’m an independent……staunch independent and will never agree to how intrusive the government has become.  The way things are going, you and I may just get the chance to meet each other in the trench….keep your powder dry!!

  • Wizard-Glick

    Here’s a question: I’ve been unemployed for over a year. Unemployment has stopped paying. Lifesavings is all but gone.I still have bills to pay.Yesterday took a cash advance on a credit card.Next month if I’m still unemployed will I be able to say to my creditors, Sorry can’t pay you this week?  But you know what I think I’ll take another cash advance.

    • 1787patriot

      @Wizard-Glick But BO says we can spend our way to prosperity!

      • RivahMitch

        @1787patriot  @Wizard-Glick But of course. The Kenyan fascist can spend it’s way to prosperity on a credit card with our names on it.

      • Combat Veteran Seabee

        @1787patriot  @Wizard-Glick
          But Winston Churchill said, “Can a people tax themselves into prosperity? Can a man stand in a pail and lift himself up by the handle?”
          “If you think that the government can give you happiness and prosperity, you need to take another hard look at the American Indian!” Henry Ford, and to finalize my tirade,
          “Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money!” The Iron Lady, MARGARET THATCHER!!!!!!

  • the Truth Seeker

    Why would any moron on the right not want the debt ceiling raised? Maybe these mental midgets wanted to see economic chaos to embarrass the president and the country. The bottom line is that right-wing haters could care less about the country. They are only interested in their ideological talking points. They decry the Federal government, but never fail to cash their Social Security checks or submit their Medicare card to their care provider. The irony is that many of these people that rail here are the biggest hypocrites in our society.  They would be first to lone up for stem cell research for their child, they all use contraception and if their daughter was raped or engaged in under age sex with the wrong guy, they would be running to Planned Parenthood. Talk is cheap, but as the poet said, action speak louder than words. Just look up who goes to Planned Parenthood.
    Accordingly the percentage of women who are Catholic in America is 32.1% and the percentage of Catholic women who have abortions is 31.5%. One can see more on this at http://www.holysmoke.org/femfem)113.htm.
     
    Again talk is cheap! We hear it every day!

    • Nottakenyan

      @the Truth Seeker
       If any half sane individual thinks that the government is here to serve the American taxpayer, they should be commited to a mental institution !!!!

      • the Truth Seeker

        @Nottakenyan What does that stupid remark mean?  Taxes on your bracket haven’t risen in 10 years. Your taxes go 66% to Defense and debt service. Your payroll tax goes to Medicare and Social Security, the short fall or debt  on both goes to the increase in debt service. Looks like any plans you would suggest would be a large laugh! So you are not Kenyan! Are you an American?

        • texanna

          @the Truth Seeker  @NottakenyanOh perhaps the meaning is that you are a left wing nut job who spouts the same kind of crap that comes from ovomit and his ghouls.  In the words of your secretary of state, “what difference does it make?”  so long as the gun isn’t pointed at you.  Go back to the crap spewed by media matters, troll.

        • darylj46

          @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan
           That remark is far worse to say because you make it sound like you do your budget the same way. Just raise your debt by borrowing more even tho you can’t pay what you have now. I keep my budget down so low that way I can have a surplus. It is better to have a surplus than be above your head in debt. When this country is totally bankrupt then you will cry so loud but no one is going to come to your rescue. Nottakenyan is so correct and it is both parties as well as the citizens of this country because the citizens are either brainwashed or have no backbone

        • RoyMcdade

          @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan JUST ANOTHER FOOLISH TALKING HEAD….

        • the Truth Seeker

          @texanna  @Nottakenyan As usual, a perversion of her remarks. She was dealing with smears and basically said, let’s look to the answer of what had happened. You folks have to deal with facts once in a while. Obama and his ghouls, are you for real? Any other mean-spirited anti-American idiocy? You’ve got all day!

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan
           Look at your paycheck NOW! Oh wait, you are getting it from me! In that case…. K.M.A. you oblowhole/brown hole sucker!

        • texanna

          @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan
           Hey, troll, the only anti-American idiocy is coming from your sorry communist a$$.  You really need to bone up on talking points some more.  And Hilary Clinton is responsible for the Benghazi deaths as is ovomit.  You might say they are traitors and murderers.  In fact, I just did.  So go back to your side of the road and have another big old glass of kool aid.  You are obviously a ghoul maker like the 47%.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @texanna  @Nottakenyan Smear artist, don’t you know that commie crap went out with Tail-Gunner Joe McCarthy? Don’t you have a better claim then that stale BS. Grown up troglodyte, you wouldn’t know Karl Marx from Groucho Marx. Cite one socialistic or Marxist element of our society? I am waiting dirtbag? Does the country own the RRs, the planes, the terminals, the means of production, set the wages, prices, the products in the stores, where you have to go to school, what you have to wear, etc. The answer to you and any other AHole who makes that claim is no!  So shut up and stop insulting more than half America.

        • texanna

          @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan
           Let’s see…GM takeover, bank bail out – takover, healthcare takeover, housing (fanny and freddy) bail out – takeover.  That’s just the beginning, you half-baked dildo.  It must be very difficult to navigate with you head so far up your own ass.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @texanna  @Nottakenyan You are as stupid as a wooden fence. The government was paid back 97% of its $418 billion outlay and made more than $18 billion from the effort. 
           
          The TARP program originally authorized expenditures of $700 billion. The Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act reduced the amount authorized to $475 billion. By October 11, 2012, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) stated that total disbursements would be $431 billion and estimated the total cost, including grants for mortgage programs that have not yet been made, would be $24 billion. This is significantly less than the taxpayers’ cost of the savings and loan crisis of the late 1980s but does not include the cost of other “bailout” programs (such as the Federal Reserve’s Maiden Lane Transactions and the Federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac). The cost of the former crisis amounted to 3.2 percent of GDP during the Reagan/Bush era, while the GDP percentage of the latter crisis’ cost is estimated at less than 1 percent.[2] While it was once feared the government would be holding companies like GM, AIG and Citigroup for several years, it was reported in April of 2010 that those companies are preparing to buy back the Treasury’s stake and emerge from TARP within a year.[2] Of the $245 billion handed to U.S. and foreign banks, over $169 billion has been paid back, including $13.7 billion in dividends, interest and other income, along with $4 billion in warrant proceeds as of April 2010. AIG is considered “on track” to pay back $51 billion from divestitures of two units and another $32 billion in securities.[ As of December 31, 2012, the Treasury had received over $405 billion in total cash back on TARP investments, equaling nearly 97 percent of the $418 billion disbursed under the program.
           
          So, genius, you would have had the government do nothing, and had let the collapses create a Depression.  Good think a jerk like you wasn’t involved in anything more serious than loading up a squirrel rifle. Thank God your place is on right-wing blogs where you can get off your pathetic rocks.

        • RoyMcdade

          @Combat Veteran Seabee  @the Truth Seeker  @Nottakenyan      Ignore the King’s Jester…. He is nothing more than a blathering FOOL looking for his opportunity to either support the King or talk from his empty head…

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker  @texanna  @Nottakenyan Mean spirited? You calling people idiots or stupid?  If that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black, to use an old cliche’.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker  That comment was addressed to “Truth Seeker” (an oxymoron) not others.

      • the Truth Seeker

        @Nottakenyan But you are not sane- so don’t pretend!

    • RivahMitch

      @the Truth Seeker Many of us who you claim “don’t care about the country” have fought in her wars and spent decades paying her taxes. What’s your claim to citizenship, idiot. Oh, BTW, we also pay our own bills.

      • the Truth Seeker

        @RivahMitch  What have you done for America lately? Any claim to fame? I haven’t about your personal record? The taxes paid on your income must be shattering. How about Mitt Romney’s taxes and the thousands of American who made over a million per year and paid no taxes last year?

        • dntmkmecomoverther

          @the Truth Seeker  @RivahMitch More liberal, entitlement drivel.
          You have no clue as to what any millionaire pays in ‘taxes’.  Those people supply jobs (last I knew, no poor people supplied jobs to anyone).  They also purchase the bulk of the items that sustain the economy such as expensive cars, planes, boats, homes…all of which support industries that produce them.  They pay taxes on all those items as well…all combined, probably more than you and I make in a year.  Once again, if you are a ‘truthseeker’ , here’s your truth.

        • bikerk

          @dntmkmecomoverther……No sense in bogging down the Truth Seeker with real rebuttal.  He obviously is too liberal to grasp the concept of any point that you make.  Apparently, his brainwashing has been made complete as he thinks that those who pay over 60% of TOTAL tax base really pay zero taxes….(yes Truth Hater….the rich pay most of the tax base) and you would be not only unemployed but all your gov’t services would be drastically cut.  But, make sure you come back with a diversion tactic and more hate speech.

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @the Truth Seeker  @RivahMitch
           Hey truthseeker, look up oblowholes return for a real shock when it comes to Charitable contributions, vs. Romney, that’ll shut your stupid ass up! GO LOOK!

        • RivahMitch

          @the Truth Seeker What have you done FOR America EVER is the relevant question. What are your credentials as an American? Have you ever put your life on the line for anything or just your mouth?… and WTF does Mitt Romney have to do with the current discussion? (Though he’s certainly done more for America than you….)

        • SicOfObama

          @the Truth Seeker  @RivahMitch That remark “What have you done for America lately?”   This isn’t about the daily lives of our citizens or what they have or have not done for their country.  Thousands of solders have done tons more and continue to give their best..  This is about what the corrupt politicians are doing to our citizens and our country, NOT the citizens.  This is the issue here..  Anyone who can think for themselves can see where our economy and the out of control spending is taking us.  I went to college, took math, algebra, trig and accounting.  When the debits and credits did not balance, I knew something was wrong.  If I couldn’t find out what was causing that, I would have failed accounting.  But I didn’t fail it I passed it because I knew what caused it to not balance.  I took accounting 1, 2 and 3 courses and then took income tax accounting, and the same rules apply to all businesses, including big government accounting. 
           
          The citizens are NOT up for scrutiny, because the citizens did not make this debt, did not increase the debt limit, and did not send our tax dollars to foreign nations who vow to kill us.  Taking  up for the idiot politicians, and taking up for the politicians who purposely plot to destroy us only makes that person look like a complete idiot.  No one with common sense who even went past second grade can take up for them.   Our citizens are not even directly responsible for this carnage and to the debt they made and still make.
           
          Our citizens fight in our military, we obey the laws that these politicians abuse us with, we are their peons, and they pad their pockets at OUR expense.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @SicOfObama  @RivahMitch Simplistic answers from a bean counter- You know better! Run for office. How would you have budgeted for two unfunded wars, Katrina, Sandy, etc? Take it from a separate budget for Social Security and Medicare financed by the pay roll tax. You are an accountant? Good luck, I have had a realistic one for 45 years. By the way ,what citizens obey the war? We have more people in prison than the whole planet except for China. We also have four times as many on parole. Therefore many do not obey the law.
           
          Our government has to deal with the exigencies of the day. As to this Congress, it is the GOP which has stopped most of its potential progress. Their right-wing, gerrymandered districts, carved out by GOP states controlled in 2010 will change in the next two cycles. You can bleat all you want about Washington, but you are on the wrong side of history.

        • Combat Veteran Seabee

          @the Truth Seeker  @RivahMitchWhy do you question when yet, you! do not put forward your accomplishments? Hmmmm! Just like obammy, you have none!

        • RivahMitch

          @SicOfObama  @the Truth Seeker Precisely! Semper Fi!

        • RivahMitch

          @the Truth Seeker  @SicOfObama Reiterating: What have you done FOR America EVER is the relevant question. What are your credentials as an American? Have you ever put your life on the line for anything or just your mouth?… and WTF does Mitt Romney have to do with the current discussion? (Though he’s certainly done more for America than you….) You ramble and babble your left-wing drive but seem incapable of answering a simple question. What is there about you that would give you any credibility in a discussion? What do you bring to the table and what skin do you have in the game?

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RivahMitch  I’ll tell you clown, a lot more than you. Raised two Ivy Leaguers, ran a manufacturing business for 25 years and kept 80 families working and raising their families, own a great home in the 8th richest county in America and the richest county in Florida,  ran 20 political campaigns, raised money for many charities, run a scholarship fund at my former HS and raised countless thousands for 20 years, hosted a radio show and still do for 7 years,  ran reunions from my 20th to my 40th, served on local municipal commissions,  ran the biggest charity ball for the March of Dimes and the FDR Library,  was a political District Leader for 20 years, ran three state sponsored sectional sports tournaments when I was still in college and learned how to tolerate miscreants like you.
           
          You folks hate, hate, hate, complain, complain,complain, and have learned nothing. Keep on watching FOX Noise and Rush. You 46% give your vote to the 1%. But frankly, I am in the 3% so I benefit both ways.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @dntmkmecomoverther  @RivahMitch  I have plenty a clue what people pay. I was a registered financial consultant for a Fortune 500 company for the last 15 years of my working career. Romney paid less than 13% FIT taxes in the revealed years, he sheltered $250 million overseas, which should have disqualified him for the GOP nomination and he ballooned his IRAs with all sorts of  very expensive accounting. If you think he paid any taxes in the years that he didn’t reveal his returns, you are more gullible than you even sound. As to job creators, you must re-learn when and where the jobs were created since Truman and who was responsible and what the tax rates were.
           
          Wall Street Journal http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/
          Jobs created:
           
          GW Bush 3.0 million Clinton 23.1 GHW Bush 2.5 Reagan 16.0 Carter 10.5 Ford 1.6 Nixon 9.4 LBJ 11.9 JFK 3.6 Eisenhower 3.5 Truman 8.4
          For all you doubters, Democrats have created far more jobs than the GOP.
          On a year by year basis- Clinton, Carter, Reagan, LBJ, Truman, Nixon and JFK lead Ford, Bush I and II and Eisenhower by a wide margin. In 28 years the Democrats created 57 million jobs to the GOP’s 36 million in 36 years. Those are the facts. Look it up from the WSJ.
           
          I know these are lies and commie propaganda, but they were taken from the Wall Street Journal – numb nuts!

        • JuliB

          @the Truth Seeker: Richard J. Garfunkel, you are such a narcissist/sociopath lying SOB!

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @bikerk And Truth Seeker is also obviously one of our esteemed teachers feeding his hogwash to the young minds that are not developed enough yet to know any better.

      • the Truth Seeker

        @RivahMitch Screw you and your phony patriotism. You don’t own the country nor the constitution. There have been tens of millions of Vets, many in my family and they don’t go around flashing their discharge papers. You either volunteered or were drafted. Your choice or the governments. You knew the deal, you have your benefits and they are paid by me. I don’t complain and I am glad we have a volunteer army. But, remember, what the essayist Samuel Johnson said, “the last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism.” We’ve  had our chair of arm chair generals and chicken hawks who will fight to the last drop of some one else’s blood. Get off your soapbox and deal with issues, not BS from your barrack’s experience. I am not trashing the military nor anyone’s service, but your service doesn’t entitle you to one more vote in the ballot booth.

        • RivahMitch

          @the Truth Seeker Two items: First, it was my choice. 2nd, I’ve received no benefits from my service other than one year of the GI Bill for my final year of college. I also don’t go around flashing my discharge papers (though I do wear a “nam vet” hat as a way of saying FY to people who’ve never paid their way and who were generous with their sputum when I returned.) Phony patriotism? Arm chair generals and chicken hawks? I’ve put my own life on the line for what I believe and I’d do it again when necessary. What have you risked for your beliefs and what’s your problem? Does my service entitle me to an extra vote, NOPE. But it, like over 40 years of work and paying taxes provides some perspective of my convictions and sincerity. Oh, and thank those vets in your family for their service. It’s a shame they have to deal with the likes of you. I think I’ll end this discussion here because casting pearls to swine is never productive.

    • dntmkmecomoverther

      @the Truth Seeker It’s really quite simple.  You don’t want the bankrupt person using the credit card over and over and over again hoping to reduce what they owe.  For a moniker like ‘TruthSeeker’ you may want to change it to ‘NotVeryBright’…it’s more truthful.

      • Combat Veteran Seabee

        @dntmkmecomoverther  @the Truth Seeker
         How about, “Just Plain Stupid!”

      • the Truth Seeker

        @dntmkmecomoverther  Again simple answers, unacceptable by most of the Congress including the radical right GOP. You can’t sell that old stale crud with me.  Your answer begs the issue of reality. But, of course, you folks would throw the country into an other recession, you would throw folks out of work, cut off their health care and put millions in the poor house. The greatest cause of personal bankruptcy in America is one’s health care needs. So rave on McDuff and realize that even the GOP can read the tea leaves. By the way we were much more in debt in WWII, 95% of the debt was war work, we sold bonds and eventually we grew our way out and amortized the debt. As to debt, Bush 43 and the GOP controlled Congress fought two wars with tax cuts, the first time in our history. 
         
        With regard to surpluses, the Congressional Budget Office reported budget surpluses of $69 billion in 1998, $126 billion in 1999, and $236 billion in 2000 a total of $431 billion during the last three years of Clinton’s presidency. In the last 30 years President Reagan raised the National Debt , 189% from $818B to $2,698B. Bush 41 raised the debt 55%, Clinton 37% from $4,188B to $5,728B, Bush 43 raised the debt 86% and Obama raised it 35% (in the face of the greatest Recession since the Great Depression) from $10,627B to $14,288 B. Those are the numbers ( as of 12-18-12).

    • bikerk

      I find it totally ironic that your handle “the Truth Seeker” is so far opposite from your dissertation above that’s it’s laughable at best.  I could write an entire book tearing apart what you posted above, but let’s just take it a step or two.  Sentence 1…..you assume that anyone against raising the debt limit is a moron.  Really…..hmmm….sounds like hate speech to me Mr Truth Hater.  Sentence 2.. And you call those people haters when your post is riddled with hateful statements against anyone who doesn’t think the way you think.  I know 5 year olds that act more mature than that.  The rest of your hateful post is riddled with accusations that you couldn’t back up if you were paid….  The last part…..can you tell me just how many catholic women are right wing as opposed to left wing?….No?  Didn’t think so because there are both conservative and liberals in all the religions.  So, the bottom line is that your post is synonomous with juvinile trolls that only post what comes off the top of their heads because they are pitiful little trolls who hate everyone around them and don’t have any REAL courage.  I pity you.

    • Nottakenyan

      @the Truth Seeker
       In udder words, da gubmint not be heer ta hep you—PERIOD!!!

      • the Truth Seeker

        @Nottakenyan Sounds like you! Who said you are not an illiterate clown? Where, when?

    • jsexton56

      @the Truth Seeker Well truth seeker, i am a conservative. i am NOT a republican or democrat. Those people just want our money. If you are too GD blind to see what they are doing to destroy your rights you deserve the government with all its irs agents. Do you think they love you? ha ha. dumb bitch! Contrary to what you have said, I am for stem cell research, giving a person the right to die with dignity, legalizing marijuana, abortion but not when the baby can live, and i am a conservative.  i consider myself an independent, but vote republican because the democrat party does not represent me anymore. OMG i forgot to mention i am WHITE! what a dirty word in the left’s mouth. If you are white you are just plain stupid to give up your rights to people who hate your guts. I am a nurse. do you know what planned parenthood does with aborted babies that live? they have a pan in the back of the shop where they deposit the baby with the placenta. You can hear the baby screaming for hours until it dies. If you are for that, why not volunteer and help throw some more black babies away and lower the democrat party vote. abortion and planned parenthood has done what the KKK could never have done in a hundred years.the left liberal democrat voters are too stupid to know what is happening to them. your like sheep being lead to the slaughter by your lovely left leaning government. Go ahead give up your 2nd amendment right. which  right will be next? For me i will fight to keep my rights and you left leaning pigs or any one else who comes to take away my rights better have your funeral insurance paid up, cause your gonna need it!

      • the Truth Seeker

        @jsexton56  Name the rights you have lost? Please list them right here or shut up! If more non-whites had abortions, the whole pro-life movement would have died years ago! Why don’t you read a little about Nixon, Justices Burger and Rehnquist and their feelings on Miranda and their trashing of the 5th and 6th Amendments. Learn some history.

  • SandyTrank

    It is just never going to end; they just keep digging us in deeper. Oh and btw the Senate voted down Rand Pauls bill 79 to 19. Sad that so few are there supporting our second amendment…

    • davienne

      @SandyTrank
       thats why we need our guns more than ever… dis-arming Americans while arming the enemy… what could possibly go wrong

      • SandyTrank

        @davienne They want to disarm us before we go down to be able to control the uprising that is coming. The entire Nation will not submit without a fight.

        • davienne

          @SandyTrank
           i just heard OLE drunkin joe today, say that the weapons ban will do nothing.. it maybe be another joe F-Up but it sure POed ovomit.. bath-house barry said he wouldnt endorse biden in 2016….

        • bikerk

          It’s posturing on Biden’s part.  He is going to run in 2016 and he needs to start sewing seeds of dissention between him and Obama now in order to correctly posture himself to beat Obama in 2016.  And for those who don’t think that Obama is going to run in 2016 just watch.

        • Sparkle58

          @bikerk Believe I read that Hilary is in & Biden is out & that dissention has already raised it’s ugly head between Hil & Joe…that should be a hoot to watch.  I just wonder what will we have left after 4 more years of Obamascama doing as he darn well pleases, he kinda thinks he can do no wrong & if he does, who in the world is going to say so….our people in Congress have just sat back on their rear ends, drawing fat checks & done not one Continental d—n thing for us…1st time in my life but I wish I was a man now..so that I could do more.  But I have Bulldog tenacity so I will fight w/all my might for someone one to step up w/—s enough to take the whole shooting match on!….Just wish I knew someone to fill the bill, if you are out there, please step up & lead us on!!

        • SandyTrank

          @davienne Ole jo is a nightmarish thought!

    • AndyAnderson2

      @SandyTrank Sandy I think we need to have someone write a new constitution for the melitia  in America.. We need someone that understands the rights we have.. We need to have a Melitia and show the government that we are not going to give up our weapons.. I’, sure we would flood the networks with people wanting to sing up for the Melitia.. We have to stand our rights and not give in like our elected officials.. I would like for Paul Rand to do the writing as he wants teh same thing as we do.. If anybody knows Mr Rand tell him what we would like.. @

      • SandyTrank

        @AndyAnderson2 We need a group that can stand against obamas brown shirts. If it’s done right, it will come out right but we don’t want to have the whole bunch of us eliminated like they did in Egypt and Syria. Surely is a matter for some serious prayer. We are in trouble here.

  • dntmkmecomoverther

    As my German neighbor would say, “Thems sunumbabiches!’

  • SicOfObama

    I know of people who are on disability who got their payments this month and over $120.00 was short of their payment.  So, now the us citizens are paying for THEIR debt and THEIR huge out of control spending mistakes, when are  THEY going to sacrifice for their mistakes like they are making us sacrifice?   They not only give our jobs to illegals and send our jobs to communist countries, they keep their jobs and we lose ours.   They not only raise our taxes, they make themselves exempt and use our money as their own.  So, when will they start suffering and sacrificing , eating those peas that obama told us to eat, while he eats like a king at OUR expense.   When will they cut their salaries and suffer like we do?   We pay their salaries for them to live like kings and they put the burden on us to fix their out of control spending.   Looks to me that the ones who created this monster should at least have to contribute, as well.  And, they should contribute MORE.

    • SFS444

      This will go on until we prosecute the corupt politicians and put them in a regular prison not a white collar crime prison. We also need to take control of this country by force and stop giving D.C. our money.

      • KarenMorrisonSutton

        @SFS444 Do we have THAT MUCH space?

        • RoyMcdade

          @KarenMorrisonSutton  @SFS444 Plenty of room in the 800+ FEMA Camps….

      • RoyMcdade

        @SFS444 Treason is punishable by either hanging or the firing squad.. And it is the Job of the Provost Marshall..Why he hasn’t done his job I cannot tell you ???

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RoyMcdade  @SFS444 Don’t you have to be a U.S. citizen before you can be charged with treason?  I would think spying and being an enemy of the State should qualify for the firing squad.  Either way, America needs to be free of this enemy to the Constitution.

    • RoyMcdade

      @SicOfObama Do I hear ANOTHER voice of dissatisfaction ??? Well good buddy the ball is in our court, what can we do about it ??? Certainly not wait till ALL our Freedoms and Rights , like the2nd Amendment, ARE TAKEN AWAY ????

    • blauglas

      Hey Sicofbama:  I like your name !    Isn’t it something, that we, Americans (that leaves-out the impostor-fraud-closet swish-public enemy#1-in-cheef occupying OUR White House): have a creep in OUR White House that the fools mezmerized-walking-dead voted-for in 2008 and 2012 and that conservative, taxpayers (50% of the wage-earners) have to DAILY get besieged-with and have to try to deal-with the leftist-marxist-socialist destructor-in-cheef long-time conspiracies and policies to destroy the U.S. and actions to resurrect OUR Country (it is NOT obummers) from the pit of destruction.    Hey, the American dream used-to-be owning a home, then winning the lottery. NOW: the American dream is being freed-of the obummer-pestilence !!  Begone, obummer anti-Christ !! Count on it:  obummer will be exiled to a desert island out of cell-phone range and WITHOUT a pension from OUR United States !   BTW, take the racist moocchelle with you !

  • jsexton56

    I have been sickened by our politicians selling us out. It seems they don’t care about the people with jobs. they are more interested in giving free hand outs. OMG my granddaughter got free (cosmetic)  braces for her teeth from medicare. I never got free dental or braces growing up. What the hell is going on with our free wheeling politicians? OK it is nice for her to be able to get braces. But the government is BROKE! They borrowed money for this procedure! If they can’t afford it then they CAN’T AFFORD IT, PERIOD! Really pisses me off! Then they give billions of dollars of fighter jets and tanks to our enemies! Don’t we have a say in what is happening with OUR tax dollars? Maybe this takeover of our tax dollars is why they want to confiscate our guns! Then they can take more and more for idiotic payouts to people who are not hungry or in trouble. Hell i am eating beans and brown rice every meal because i cant afford food prices anymore. they never mention inflation like it does not exist! Of course the politicians who are creating this mess don’t need to worry about eating and rice meal after meal. they take our money and use it as their own! That is why i have become a staunch supporter of the TEA PARTY!  It seems to be the only organization with any sense. If the liberal left hate it, it MUST BE GOOD FOR ME!

    • davienne

      @jsexton56
       WE NEED A 3RD PARTY CANDIDATE…
      the republican party is dead in the water…
      My candidates would be Ted Cruz… Allen West… Michelle Bachmann

      • RoyMcdade

        @davienne  @jsexton56 With them NOT BEING ABLE TO QUESTION VOTER FRAUD by a signed agreement with the Dems, How the HELL do they EVER expect to win ???? I guess they are going to continue to hope THE IGNORANCE OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS WILL SUPPORT THEIR GREEDY, LYING  SPENDING BUTTS….

        • davienne

          @RoyMcdade  @jsexton56
           well for one thing they need to find a judge that can and will hear the case… when the romney idiots went in front of a black commiecrat judge to get it overturned …. no good could come of that… thousands of judges in the country and they had to pick a black democrat ???, come on !!! was it another set up to lose ??? maybe …

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @davienne  @RoyMcdade  @jsexton56 While true Davienne, you have to remember that Romney got his nomination using the same tactics.  What goes around, come around.  Remember too that Romney lost to McLame in ’08 who lost to OBozo also in ’08.  But the Repubicans thought he could beat OBozo when he was 2nd runner up before??????

        • RoyMcdade

          @davienne  @jsexton56 And sotero will ignore it just like he is doing with the District Court decision that he ILLEGALLY appointed those three on the NLRB… The People are now wrestling with the Laziness, Ineptitude, Political Ignorance of the Conservatives and the THIEVING, GREEDY, and CORRUPT Repub Party. Guess you could say the chickens have come home to roost.  What can we do about it ??? I am going to wait/ see how things unfold re: his implementation of Socialism… And then I am going to wake up the chickens AND KICK ALL THEIR ASSES OUT….

        • davienne

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RoyMcdade  @jsexton56
           EXACTLY .. thats why i couldnt get on board with the  romney camp….one of the reasons …… i voted for him but i wasnt for him…

        • RoyMcdade

          @davienne  @GrumpyOldMan  @jsexton56 Romney was a SHILL for the Repub party who they could support and KEEP OUT THE LIKES of Gingrich, Paul, and Bachman. Actually even he said he didn’t care if he won (OR LOST)… Either we take over the Repub party or we start a 3rd Party..

        • davienne

          @RoyMcdade  @GrumpyOldMan  @jsexton56
           i said that earlier… i think a 3rd party should be the way to go… the repubs are  corrupt polititians…. it has been obvious in the way they have been going to the left … on the debt ceiling, nominating kerry, not challenging ovomit on his recess appointments, ndaa, cispa L.O.S.T, and on .. and on…

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @davienne  @RoyMcdade  @jsexton56 If you weren’t for him you shouldn’t have voted for him.  One thing that should be clear by now is that the lesser of two evils isn’t going get you votes.  Romney became the nominee using the same tactics OBozo used in getting elected.  Romney lost to McLame who lost to OBozo, so Romeny was the 2nd runner up in ’08. Yet the idiots (Peewee what’s his face in charge if the RNC) and a couple of other good ole boys in the Republican Party think he’s going to win in 2012?????
           
          There is another Party.  It’s number 3 in membership in the U.S. already.  It’s called the Libertarian Party.  They are for individual liberty and fiscally conservative.  They are not, as most people thik, liberals.  So we don’t kneed another party.  We need to work with the Libertarian Party and hopefully make it into the Party putting forth the correct candidates and thereby making the Republican party defunct.

        • davienne

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RoyMcdade  @jsexton56
           i dissagree… because i wanted to do my part to get barry out… not one of the lazy jerks that said im not voting because i dont like romney, … that is part of the reason we got 4 more years of dictatorship under this regime…

      • KarenMorrisonSutton

        While I agree we need someone who has integrity we can’t go with a third party….the DEMS/Liberals/Socialists would win out every time and we can’t afford for that to happen again!!! @davienne  @jsexton56

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @KarenMorrisonSutton  @davienne  @jsexton56 Everyone who CLAIMS to be Libertarian should vote Libertarian.  Then OBozo wouldn’t be squatting in the White House now.  Then again if we just followed the Constitution he wouldn’t have been there in the first place.

  • DeanBraun

    DAMN!!!!

  • RoyMcdade

    The People need a list of ALL these SOB’s who voted to increase our taxes so we can FIRE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM…What ever happened to THE NATIONAL DEBT ??? OR CUTTING SPENDING ??? Or DECREASING THE SIZE OF GOVT ???? People NEED to be aware of who is on their side (IF ANY), and who are bungling them where the Sun does NOT shine. ….

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @RoyMcdade We have taxation without representation again.  And spending without representation again, and the stealing of the Social Security Trust Fund still.  Remember when it was the Social Security Insurance and your check still says FICA which means Federal Insurance Corp of America.  Would you sit still if your house burned down and State Farm (Allstate, GICO or whoever) told you “Sorry. We spent all the money.”  And yet people seem content to let Congress get away with that.  THEY STOLE OUR MONEY!

      • RoyMcdade

        @GrumpyOldMan  @RoyMcdade Hey Grumpy,   I’ve known for years Congress has literally spent our monies that we intrusted them to WATCH. And now they are calling it Entitlements…I sincerely wish I had an answer for you and the millions of pissed-off people,but I am still working on getting that FRAUDULENT prez out of office without getting my head blown off in the process or my home blown up by a drone….

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RoyMcdade I think we are in total agreement!

  • giant33

    It never ends, they need a 12 step program to stop spending.

  • J Joy

    Obama seemingly has nothing standing in his way to get everything he wants.  He also doesn’t know how to close his wallet.  Enough already!!!  America (the Federal government) DOES have a spending problem and at the rate Obama’s government is going no one in America will have any money left.  We don’t have an endless supply of funding.  
     
    As for my personal household, the more the Federal government spends, the more the Federal government takes in taxes, the less I have to spend and the more I have to go over my budget and make cuts / adjustments.  I don’t understand why the Federal government can’t do some cutting and adjusting.  
     
    I’m tired of watching America falling apart a little every day while Obama flies somewhere to campaign more on some stupid issue that he seems to have no knowledge of.  And his arrogance and that of many other Democrats / liberals is taking this country apart.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @J Joy Just love Democrats.  First we get one that can’t keep his zipper closed, and now, as you point out, we get one that can’t keep a wallet closed!  If they get Hilliary we’ll probably have one that can’t keep here legs closed!

  • budlangpapa

    This is going to go on until we finally break apart.  For it to stop we would all have to suffer in some way.  That was true in the 1930’s and it would be that way again.  The alternative is to continue until the crash (and it will come) and then our leaders can brag about how good and safe they made us feel while we went down.  Just remember, the guys that caused this mess are ones who are claiming they will fix it.  Oh joy!

  • ErikOsbun

    They’re going wrong.

  • agbjr

    Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment and the senate shenanigans with OUR money will stop. When senators were beholden to their own STATE legislatures they didn’t dare saddle the public with such outrageous and wasteful spending – they would have been recalled, tarred and feathered. For the past century senators have answered to no one but their party’s agenda and THAT is what has brought us to the edge of national insolvency.

    • ErikOsbun

      @agbjr Repealing the 17th would dissolve the Senate, an interesting idea.  I am not sure that would solve the problem.

      • GrumpyOldMan

        @ErikOsbun  @agbjr It WOULD NOT dissolve the Senate!  It would return the Senate to the control of the 50 States instead of 100 members who only look out for themselves. We had a Senate and Senators long before 1913 when the 17th Amendment was ratified.

        • ErikOsbun

          @GrumpyOldMan  @agbjr And just how do you suggest that be accomplished?  It seems like a good idea.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @ErikOsbun  @agbjr How to accomplish? You repeal the 17th Amendment the same was it was created in the first place. Then things automatically go back to what they were before this misguided Amendment was passed.

        • ErikOsbun

          @GrumpyOldMan  @agbjr Theoretically so, but what is the practicality of that happening?  After all, the Senate has to vote on it.

        • agbjr

          @ErikOsbun  @GrumpyOldMan  Frankly, to repeal an amendment an amendment of repeal must be passed. Legislation repealing the Seventeenth Amendment would likely pass the House but to do so in the Senate would require a new majority of non-partisan Constitution Originalists. If repeal legislation was gotten through the Senate ratification by two-thirds of the States would probably follow.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @agbjr You are correct.  The Senate began going to hell as soon as the 17th Amendment passed!  It needs to be repealed and in repealing term limits applied to both the Senate and the House of Representatives along the “Natural Born Citizen” part of Article Two, Section One reaffirmed with what was the commonly understood definition when the Constitution was originally written.

  • Jewels7

    Are ALL those idiots in Washington out of their ever loving minds? What in the hell don’t they understand? Oh I forgot, we don’t have anyone that uses common cents, they just want to take our cents and make more dollars for themselves. All peeps on social security and fixed incomes need to take a vote to raise OUR OWN income like they do. I see China coming over here and demanding government land and buildings to pay off the debt, I can also see Obama telling they can have whatever they want, as long as they don’t take anything he and his minions own. I would like to see them take California, as long as they take Mrs. botox piglosi with it.

    • the Truth Seeker

      @Jewels7  Are you sick, high, uninformed or just functionally illiterate and a dope. Bush 43 created most of the Chinese debt with 2 unpaid, unfunded wars, with unprecedented tax cuts in war time. Grow up and get your head out of the sand. Remember the Bush 43 Recession, the Wall Street meltdown, the deregulated agencies, the paid off credit agencies. ( Those were not Obama’s fault nor the Democrats!)
       
      By the way California just reported its biggest state surplus in many years. Maybe if you were smarter, more capitalistic you wouldn’t be on fixed income. You want the GOP to help the likes of you? The Tea Party wants to voucher Medicare and privatize SS. Read a little, it may help!

      • JuliB

        @the Truth Seeker @Jewels7 Richard J. Garfunkel: Lies, lies, and damn lies. Your bottom must really be sore tonight!

        • JuliB

          P.S. This comment was directed to the Truth Seeker, aka Richard J. Garfunkel, the liberal troll, not Jewels7.

        • RoyMcdade

          @JuliB  @the  @Jewels7    Which means if he works for sotero, The King’s Jester MUST HAVE subjected himself to the sotero INDOCTRINATION PROCESS….ha Ha Ha

      • RonaldChristopher

        @the Truth Seeker  I would sure love to know where you get your information. You have to be a democrat. Everything is a republicans fault. Cain killing Abel was Bush’s fault. No, Bush did not create most of our debt. Obama did that (or I should say, Congress allowed obama to do it). Besides that, Congress gave Bush  permission to go to war so it was Congress who increased the debt under Bush. Get it correct or shut the hell up. I have been reading your junk for a while now and for somebody called the Truth Seeker, you are full of it. A Truth Seeker is one who goes out to find the truth, not spout his mouth about what he thinks the truth is. In case you forgot, Bush had a democrat congress his last two years in office and it was they who dealt the death blow to America. It was also Clinton who started the destruction of America. You can study that one and get back to me on it. Don’t forget Truth Seeker, you want the truth you will get it.

  • DWinch

    There is no doubt and safe to assume that what these fools are doing is trying to destroy this nation on purpose.
    You can’t possibly believe this is the work of responsible and intelligent people.

  • KarenMorrisonSutton

    This is EXACTLY why we HAVE TO HAVE TERM LIMITS!!!!  This is like giving them all our checkbooks and saying “take whatever you want, take it all if you need it” and in the meantime they’re buying expensive cars with OUR money, the best wines and meals, living high on the hog and we AREN’T stopping them!!!  This is actually criminal activity if you ask me!!!

  • Tony Ruiz

    Our senate is an enemy of the American people

    • RoyMcdade

      @Tony Ruiz     Tony, I don’t think it ever was our friend. It is a group of people who had limitless power, went to their heads, and created the MONSTER it is now. How we slay the dragon is another problem…/

  • CharlieSeattle

    Oh dear, what on earth does the average American have to be mad about?
     
    Congress and Bill Clinton pass NAFTA and American jobs disappear in a great sucking sound south of the border. Ross Perot was right by the way!
     
    Congress and Obama will not enforce existing immigration laws and secure the border. Could that be because..
    >>Democrats want illegal immigrants because they, and their now naturalized children, vote Democratic to keep the gravy train of free tax payer benefits flowing at the expense of real Americans.
    >>Republicans want illegal immigrants because their supporters want cheap labor at the expense of out of work Americans!
     
    Bill Clinton pushed China’s Most Favored Nation status through Congress in exchange for laundered campaign contributions from Communist China. China proceeds to lie, counterfeit and cheat its way to prosperity. More American jobs disappear in a great sucking sound south across the Pacific. Ross Perot was right again by the way! Goggle this tread: China, Clinton, Loral, Betrayal
     
    American companies cry and whine they can NOT find American Tech workers at $4.00 an hour so the US Government passes the H1B Wavier law allowing them to import Indians and others to take American high paying jobs and make their expenses to do so tax deductable!
     
    Bush lies to us and blows the Clinton Surplus on the Iraq war 5 times over just because Saddam tied to kill his daddy! Or maybe he simply misspelled “Iran” on the attack order. Lol, like that is any stretch of the imagination!
     
    Oil Companies doubled their gasoline prices during the Bush years leading us to the recession.
     
    Republican deregulation helps WALL STREET to SCREW US ALL creating the mortgage crisis, the bank fraud and the recession!
     
    Republican deregulation helps BP screw the gulf coast states!
     
    So I ask again, why get mad?
     
    Bad things are supposed to happen to stupid people that re-elect their tormentors over and over again.
     
    Bend over and just take it.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @CharlieSeattle Good one!  Ur funny. Let’s see, if Colin Powell hadn’t talked the Bush Sr. out of finishing the job he started in Iraq, would the son have had to pay for his fathers sins?
       
      Wall Street & the mortgage crisis? No, Jimmy Carter with his idiotic policies and 25% interest, Clinton’s community reinvestment act with Janet Reno telling the banks they could either lend to people who couldn’t pay them back or she would launch the full force of the Justice Department against the banks, and OBozo doubling down on that idea with everyone should have their own free home at the mortgage industries expense.  Yep Bush’s fault for sure.
       
      I’ve got no idea what ur talking about with BP Republicans and the Gulf States.
       
      Oil Companies make roughly 4 cents a gallon while the Federal Government get’s 18 cents a gallon on taxes, but it’s the oil companies that are the greedy robber barrons? Oh and now that we are getting all these fuel efficient cars, the government wants a new tax on how many miles you drive to maintain the roads.  Meanwhile that 18 cents gas tax is SUPPOSED to pay for roads is paying for mass transit instead of roads!
       
      As for jobs, we have government schools that teach absolute nonsense and kids that do nothing but play electronic games. They can’t fail and union teachers just want to get rid of the little rug rats and give the problem to someone else up the line.  How can you expect this product to actually get high paying jobs?  As for the “migrant worker”, with welfare being what it is, do you really believe some American will take these jobs at 4 dollars an hour?
       
      As I said before, Democrats will never understand the real world.  Their universe is always so much better.   Walt Disney thought so too.  He even got rich creating his own Fantasy Land!

      • http://MSN.com/ TigerStripe

        @GrumpyOldMan  @CharlieSeattle
         Just a thought on Mass Transit instead of Roads. It’s money spent more wisely to have someone transport a large number of citizens to the concentration camps than to have them drive there themselves, beside they may get lost on the way.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @TigerStripe  @CharlieSeattle LOL Yeah I guess.  But the point is, once again the government is taking money for one purpose and spending it on another.  Politicians are lying thieves and that’s the bottom line.

      • CharlieSeattle

        @GrumpyOldMan BS!

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @CharlieSeattle You really are from Seattle aren’t you.  Just like San Francisco but colder and wetter.

  • CharlieSeattle

    Two acts of TREASON by Congress against the American worker are being ignored in the press.
     
    NAFTA and Most Favored Nation trade status for China, are mainly to blame for the financial problems across the USA.
     
    It is an act of TREASON by Obama to legalize the dumping of 11-18 million illegal aliens and their naturalized children into this economy and let the unemployed American citizens pick up the tab for their crimes, healthcare and children’s education.
     
    Obama, Holder and Congress will not enforce existing immigration laws and secure the border. Could that be because…
    >>Democrats want illegal immigrants because they, and their now naturalized children, vote Democratic to keep the gravy train of free tax payer benefits flowing at the expense of real Americans.
    >>Republicans want illegal immigrants because their supporters want cheap labor at the expense of out of work Americans!
     
    As Union membership has dropped in this country so has the quality of life, the tax base school funding, highway repair, national defense, etc. etc. Strong unions are directly linked to good paying jobs in this country that once made the American middle class the greatest consumer force in the world.
     
    Obama and Congress can repeal NAFTA and China’s MFN (Most Favored Nation) Trade status and bring 8 million lost jobs back to the USA anytime they wish. That was Clinton’s gift to America in 1999 in exchange for laundered Chinese campaign contributions. Google this thread:  Clinton, China, Lora, Betrayal.
     
    But Republican supporters and big business would stop that. Major Corporations have found that China’s State Sponsorship of Capitalism is the idea market for them to be in.
     
    Unlike the US….
    No environmental laws.
    No child labor laws.
    No Patent enforcement.
    Blatant counterfeiting of US products.
    Weak state controlled Unions.
    Low wages.
    Long hours.
    No benefits.
     
    Lol, Even US Corporate expenses related to out sourcing American jobs are tax deductable. Its true. Google the thread and read it for yourself.
     
    It is really to Ironic that the very same Americans displaced by out sourcing and out of work pay the tab for those very tax deductions.
     
    Congress and Clinton gives China Most Favored Nation status and China proceeds to lie, counterfeit and cheat its way to prosperity. More American jobs disappear in a great sucking sound south across the Pacific.
     
    American companies cry and whine they can NOT find American Tech workers at $4.00 an hour so the US Government passes the H1B Wavier law allowing them to import Indians and others to take American high paying jobs and make their expenses to do so tax deductable!
     
    Bush lies to us and blows the Clinton Surplus on the Iraq war just because Saddam tied to kill his daddy! Or maybe he simply misspelled “Iran” on the attack order. Lol, like that was any stretch of the imagination!
     
    Oil Companies doubled their gasoline prices during the Bush years leading us to the recession.
    Republican deregulation helps WALL STREET to S C R E W US ALL creating the recession!
     
    Republican deregulation helps BP S C R E W US ALL AGAIN!!!
     
    Bad things are supposed to happen to stupid people that re-elect their tormentors over and over again.
    Bend over and just take it.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @CharlieSeattle BS!  A nation can not tax or spend it’s way to prosperity.  There has never been a “surplus” in the Clinton years or any other in the Federal Government.. 
       
      It’s an illusion in the way the government plays with the numbers. The debt just continues to grow year after year.  But as long as you want to blame Bush, remember 9/11 happened within the first year of his first term AND the Clinton economy was already beginning to collapse. At least Bush didn’t unilaterally attack Libya and put the Muslim Brotherhood in charge. 
       
      Democrats can never figure it out.

      • davienne

        @GrumpyOldMan  @CharlieSeattle
         talking to libreals is like beating your head against the wall…….
         
         it feels good when you stop

      • CharlieSeattle

        @GrumpyOldMan 
         
        BS!

    • matforce

      @CharlieSeattle
      Charlie, your vision for a strong US economy, I agree, is a recipe taken right out of the history books of the BOOM years of the 50s and 60s when we actually had some surpluses in our treasury, steady trade surpluses, a prosperous middle class work force, and historic high marginal tax rates that nobody acutally paid because to get a break, they were forced to invest their vast fortunes in the best game on the Street, namely the USA (corporations, payrolls, Entreperneurship, R&D, Govt. Bonds, Education Funds, NASA, Natl. Parks, philanthropy, etc.).  Since the offshoring of jobs has displaced the high wage USA worker for sweatshop labor in 3rd world nations, our middle class consumer market dynamo (the DEMAND in the supply and demand dynamic) has been decimated, our “multinational corporations” are sitting on record profits, and the legislature has been increasingly steered by a growing Plutocracy. So what did our financial sector do to address this impending cash flow problem?  Easy credit!  And a spoiled, “slow to catch on,” Attention Deficit Disorder, middle class that has had its attention diverted by our GOP on the right.  Social issues including, but not limited to gun rights, reproductive rights, sabre rattling, socio-economic “class warfare,” race, a plethora of trumped up personal freedoms infringements, has taken their eye off the ball as they join in strenuous support with those who are perpetrating their own demise!
       
      I totally agree with you assessments of the FTAs, but you may wish to look deeper into NAFTA.  It was a Bill spearheaded and signed by Bush Sr., Canada’s Mulroney, and Mexico’s Salinas but wasn’t ratified for a vote until Clinton took office and had to talk a reticent Democratic caucus into bi-partisan (there’s a word you don’t hear anymore) support for this overwhelmingly Republican supported Bill in 1994.
       
      Check out Bill S3816 http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s3816/show what it contained and how they voted; speaks volumes.

      • GrumpyOldMan

        @matforce  @CharlieSeattle Just a few things you are overlooking Matforce.  1. There were no income taxes until 1913 with the 16th Amendment. 1913 was a terrible year for the Constitution as between the 16th and 17th Amendments, the ground work was laid to put us in the position we find ourselves today.  And there is plenty of evidence to suggest the 16th Amendment was never actually ratified anyway. 
         
        2. There has NEVER been a “surplus” in the treasury.  Not since George Washington at the very beginning.
         
        3. The “boom years” of the 60’s & 70’s are another illusion.  The boom years were the 50’s and first half of the 60’s.  Then women were still mostly home makers and mothers raising children. Our children’s education wasn’t 100% farmed out to government schools.  Fathers, husbands and MEN (of which there still were some) went to work and made the money.  Meanwhile government kept inflating the dollar, placing restrictions on industry, and yeah raising taxes. 
         
        4.  Inflation and higher taxes forced women out of the house and into the work force. That meant child care for when nobody was home.  Children lost more of the family influence and gained more government school propaganda.
         
        5. Then there was Viet Nam, John Kerry and Hanoi Jane.  The VC were ready to surrender on 3 separate occasions. But thanks to the emerging liberal media and the stories they were printing, the North held on until our weak kneed politicians (John Kerry (D) surrendered and America lost its stature as a military force to be reckoned with.  Now it’s barely a shell of what it was. North Korea laughs at us, Iran laughs at us along with the Russians and the Chinese control us. 
         
        The progressives have really done us proud.  Don’t you feel proud?  The policies of this nation beginning with Jimmy Ca-a-a-ater have been a total disaster.

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan  @CharlieSeattle
           There actually were surpluses as measured by the debt of the previous year against the debt of the current year (see USA debt by year:  http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm
          In 1951, 56, & 57, (compare these figures against marginal tax rates). Debt accumulation slowed somewhat during the Clinton years when he raised taxes a mere 4.6%…

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @matforce  That’s just playing with numbers. To say we are going to cut the rate of growth in a budget is not a real cut in the spending on the program. It’s merely not growing it as fast.  The fact remains, the country has been in debt since the end of the first administration and has never a positive balance in anything but Social Security, which L.B. J raided to disguise how much he was spending in Viet Nam.  The down hill speed of this train has accelerated ever since. And it will wreck.  It’s just a matter of time.

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan
          In an effort to avoid squabbling over minutia, for starters, my main point is: the USA middle class with a decent pay and ample disposable income became the largest consumer market this world has ever seen, and fueled the mightiest economy in the world.  Revenue that is used to fund our great nation, our states, and local municipalities come right off the middle class paycheck in the form of the payroll tax.  Taxing the rich gets complicated; they have always had ways to hide their wealth and avoid taxation by placing it in the investment industry (long term capital gains, tax deferred annuities, and stock options, as well as a myriad of ways to avoid taxation (see the Business Week article: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-17/how-to-pay-no-taxes-10-strategies-used-by-the-rich), Also, how many middle class citizens park their fabulous wealth in offshore accounts to avoid taxation?
           
          Years ago, the tax code slammed the wealthiest among us with marginal tax rates of over 90% as a means of forcing them to channel their vast wealth into the investment industry.  This investment fortune benefitted not only the return on their investments from a growing economy, but the USA in hundreds of ways.  Big Bad Government back then supported the prosperity of the middle class in ways you don’t see today.
           
          Example 1: After WWII, Truman signed the Employment act of 1946 with its 3 stated goals being to “Promote maximum employment, maximum productivity, and purchase power.”  One of the thrusts of this Bill was to create a consumer market second to none and to take measures to assure that USA workers jobs were there for them and employment was assured. 
          Example 2:  During the Korean war, the USA’s magnificent manufacturing sector, which witnessed a build-up during WWII and converted easily into the world’s biggest and best private manufacturing mecca after the war, was again, seeing an increase in demand as we geared up for another war.  CEOs and their executive teams would have funneled the lion’s share of this increase into their pockets, but big bad government stepped in and ruled, “The increase had nothing to do with any sagacity on the part of management, but in response to national events (the War)” and decreed that management divide the increase among themselves and their workers; a decree that went against management’s will.
          Also, after WWII, the
           
          Reagan decided, “Who knows better how to create wealth than the wealthy?  Give ‘em a break up front and watch ‘em go!”  He reduced marginal rates from 71% to 28%, so there was no longer a need for them to INVEST their fortunes in the USA; they were free to use it wherever they wished.  History will show that the offshoring model, begun in the 60s with our garment, shoe and textile industries, and then in the 70s, our electronics, steel, and toy industries to by-pass the high wage labor force in the USA, and perfected by the time NAFTA was enacted, and hit high gear when China joined the WTO in 2001 (trade deficits reached an avg. of $600 BILLION over the last 10 years), turned the best investment portfolio from investments in the USA to those returns being realized by investments in the “global economy,” aka: sweatshops in 3rd world nations. The best investment on the Street became the China derivatives being realized by our “multinationals” who kicked the USA middle class to the curb for a larger profit share. So that now the lion’s share of USA capital flows our multinationals who are parking their vast profits in Camaan Island accounts to avoiding taxation even as they submit $340 BILLION in tax exemptions, write-offs, etc./yr. to subsidize their offshore manufacturing costs, and Communitst China, whose pulled even with the mighty USA in just 18 years…  I could go further, but my intent was to avoid minutia…  sorry.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @matforce I don’t know where you learned your economics from, but if it was a university I’d ask for a refund.  The Government destroys wealth.  It does not create wealth.  It may print money, like is currently being done, but all that does is weaken the existing dollars already in circulation.  Germany for example where one needed a wheelbarrow to carry enough currency to purchase a loaf of bread.  And the wealthy, for the most part do not park their money offshore.  That is a liberal myth.  They put their money where it will work for them and grow with the least amount of taxation.  Perhaps you heard, recently, of a very wealthy individual who just left France to move to Russia because of taxes?  How about local sports figures like Tiger Woods who moved from California to Florida because of punitive taxes?  Are you suggesting the California has the tax and economic models we should use nationally?  I don’t think so.
           
          And if you think wealth is the number on a bank statement, you are really not understanding how economics works.  Taxes and excessive spending by politicians are what is destroying this country, the middle class and eventually everyone else.  Industry moved overseas because of Unions.  Another expense with no benefit to companies.  And now, Government employees make up the vast majority of union members. 
           
          I had a brand new Chevy Camaro in 1967.  It cost me about $3,600.  My wife got a Chevy Camaro in 1997.  It cost approximately $23,000 and was a stripped down model.  I priced a Chevy Camaro last year comparable to the one I bought in 67 and it had gone to over $37,000.  How do you explain that?  It’s made from cheaper materials, a lot of it now plastic. Robots and machines make most of it, so labor costs should be less, but they are not.  The government mandates all the crap that’s extra that has to go on them, and that’s a large part of the increases, and then due to union costs they go bankrupt, the bond holders and stock holders get screwed while the union thugs take what money is left in the company.  Is it any wonder that investors invest overseas?
           
          We now have the highest tax rates of any country in the world, having surpassed Japan last year.  Is Japans economy what you desire?  How about Greece?  We are fast on the same path as Greece.  Is that the model you want?
           
          This is not what I would define as “minutia”.  And I am not sorry. I’m sorry for the country my generation made a mess of and will leave my children to take over and try to survive.  That’s what I’m sorry about!

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan
           We agree on much.  However, supply and demand is one of the foundational elements of capitalism in a free market where competition tips the scale in favor of the better product for the money.  30 years of Supply Side economics in combination with the decimation of the middle class consumer market hasn’t worked.  Allowing our manufacturing sector to be offshored and our workforce to be displaced with impunity hasn’t worked.  I favor a return to demand side side economics where the emphasis is on the consumer.
          Consider Germany, a nation with its fiscal house in relative order.  They level a 19% tariff on imports (except for some ag and raw materials), and level a VAT (value added tax, depending on how much of a product is manufactured in or ouside of Germany) to protect their vital industrial base.  We don’t do that here.
          There has been much talk since the advent of the rise of Chiina about Fair Trade, instead of Free Trade.  Gotta go for now

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @matforce Yes, supply and demand is fundamental in a free market.  But we haven’t had a truly free market in 100 years now.  And the last thing we need is another tax to take even more money out of the economy.
           
          How do consumers consume when they don’t have jobs to generate the income necessary to purchase?  How do the job creators create jobs when their money is being confiscated by government to where the reward is not worth the risk to invest in new business.  And remember, the economy you speak of was and is for the most part caused by small business, not GE, GM and other Blue Chip industry.  There is always cause and effect.  Government causes the effect of poor economies….always.  Government doesn’t “earn” money or wealth. They confiscate it through taxation.
           
          Here is another point. Why are third world countries so poor?  It’s because the people have no wealth.  Wealth being defined as personal property.  If you have no personal property who will loan you money based on your equity?  If you can’t borrow money, how do you accumulate enough money to increase your wealth?  You can’t.  I was told when a youngster, that there are two ways to accumulate wealth.  Either you labor for it, or you let your wealth labor for it.  In all cases involving wealth, it goes where it generates the greatest return on investment with the least risk.  That’s also basic.
           
          China? They don’t play by the rules, and we don’t enforce the rules.  So is that China’s fault, or our very poor mismanaged government here?

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan
           Grumpy, we seem to be talking past each other.  We seem to be making some of the same points but you would think we were in disagreement.  The main point I’m trying to assert is that there is no way that the USA work force can compete with the wage of, for example, Red China’s work force ($1.36/hr. avg. wage).  However, in most areas of production, USA products are made to a higher quality standards.  So in most (not all) cases, Made in USA has been shown to be a superior quality product.  But due to the fact that there is such a huge wage disparity between USA  and Chinese labor, I contest, Corporations who offshore jobs to exploit this wage disparity, have gained a huge competitive advantage. I agree, small businesses and corporations who choose to stay in the USA and employ USA workers, and I might add, gain the benefits of everything a USA address has to offer, are cutting costs to the bone and are by necessity exerting downward pressure on USA worker wages to compete in this “global economy” where competition for the market is based, in large part, on price.  (I will address this point further at the end).  However, that leaves less disgressionary spending for the USA worker, hence the downturn in consumer demand unless easy credit is made available to a declining income to sustain the cash flow and purchase power of these potential consumers.  On that we agree.
           
          Where we disagree, is that our nation must abandon its standard of living to compete with sweatshop labor for jobs.  There’s always been tension between labor and management in regard to wages and benefits, and management must seek the highest efficiency in the production of a product to remain competetive in a free market.  That FTAs have granted access to sweatshop labor, and the USA tax code has actually rewarded offshoring corporations for moving jobs to China, et.al, with loopholes, exemptions, tax credits, etc. to offset liabilities of setting up shop offshore is, in my view, economic treason, and is where we part ways.   I would agree with you that it is good business practice to cut cost and manage expenditures.  Where we disagree, is in the role of our governments role in this equation.
           
          One cannot blame Corporations for exploiting options including a cheap labor force in 3rd world nations, even though I do.  The trade secrets, patents, manufacturing methods, electronics, automation, assembly and distribution models that they have GIVEN to nations that would rather see the USA dead and defeated is, again, economic betrayal, but hey, that’s capitalism.  But what can be said for our elected officials that are elected to protect the best interest of the United States of America?  Their capitulation to BIG $$$ and what I call the GREAT SELLOUT, has become a matter of national security, and it is for these elected officials that history will be most unkind.  These elected officials have in my opinion, engaged in high treason when they wrote and signed off on legislation that allowed this to happen.  You said it yourself, we haven’t had a “free market” since it got complicated (you don’t want me to get into this rabbit hole!), so why have our elected representatives just GIVEN it away to our Plutocrats?  Answer: BIG $$$!!!
           
          In regard to your statement about the 35% corporate tax rate (highest in the world) that our multinationals have thousands of loopholes to get around (Corporate welfare by some estimates for $340 BILLION in tax write-offs, exemptions, etc./yr.)  What about small businesses who cannot write off that large amount in tax loopholes?  Aren’t they left holding the bag (more like a millstone around their neck)?  See the fate of Bill S3816: What it contained and how they voted; says it all!  http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s3816/show

  • TimEggert

    The debt ceiling is just a phantom. Washington continues to ignore it time and time again. May as well just get rid of it and let the spending go on unfettered. That is what’s happening anyway. We are all doomed. It is just a matter of time that everything comes crashing down on us. What fools we all must be.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @TimEggert That’s like saying if you burn your hand, you should burn the rest of your body too. Are you insane?

  • RonaldChristopher

    Of course they passed it. They wanted paid didn’t they?

  • RonaldChristopher

    I can”t figure out what is going on. For example: Obama is a democrat. Most black folks are democrats and they voted for obama. The democrats are who put together the KKK. The democrats are the founders of slavery and they championed slavery when the Republicans wanted it abolished. Yet, the blacks are for the democrats which says, blacks are for the KKK and for slavery.

  • GrumpyOldMan

    Yep, this is why the Republican Party needs to disappear.  “There is no honor (difference) among thieves.”  The Republicans have become the Democrats. No longer any difference.

    • WadeLeeHurdleSr

      @GrumpyOldMan TRUE

  • IowaPerson

    The bill from the house should have included a penalty of IMMEDIATE prison time of minimum 4 years if a budget was not passed that was $500 Billion BELOW the taxes collected for the year.   That prison time would apply to  members of the House, Senate, and WH.

    • DeaconG

      I would gladly sign a petition for that to happen.

      • WadeLeeHurdleSr

        @DeaconG I would TOO

  • http://www.numbersusa.com/ nax777

    It’s a good thing we have the Pub Party to kick around. Just think about, we would have “no one else to blame” but us if it wasn’t for the Pub Party!
    http://www.numbersusa.com / http://www.goooh.com

  • HanksterMan

    America is on a crash course to becoming a Marxist State.  It does not end well people.  In fact, it gets rather bloody.

    • Arizonasicandtired

      @HanksterMan
       Yes sir, You nailed it.

    • Arizonasicandtired

      @HanksterMan
       You know that’s not going to change until we, as a Society, have nothing left to lose. Americans, are barely cognizant that their way of live is spiraling DOWN toward 3rd World standards, and even fewer of them realize it’s BY DESIGN.

      • redskin45

        @Arizonasicandtired  @HanksterMan americans are basically a stupid and lazy bunch of people!   Too lazy to think…..too lazy to listen……too lazy to do anything but moan and groan how life is so hard!…..too late dimwits…..you’re in in now and not even the best pair of boots will get you through this s**t!!!!

    • WadeLeeHurdleSr

      @HanksterMan That Right I did not vote for this Muslim a$$ H$$$ Obama .GOD BLESS  THE USA

  • EarlHudgins

    They are really good at spending OUR money!!

  • MikeLaborde

    Oh yea, the democracks will cut spending where it needs to be cut, oh yea, un hun, yep, sure, and I’m going to be president one day. Yep.

  • MikeLaborde

    Yup , the democracks will cut spending in the right places, yep, un hunh, sure, right and they will cut their salaries, un hunh, yep.

  • djw

    What is wrong with our GOP senators that vote for this sorry bill. Will congress go along sure they don’t oppose obummer in any way.

  • DeaconG

    Here we go again with our House being Complicit in the destruction of our economy and country. It makes no difference which side of the isle they are on. The GOP has proven once more to me that they can be trusted about as much as the Obama liberals. The democrats Always say they will cut spending and NEVER have done it.

    • redskin45

      @DeaconG the GOP has no balls…..

  • RoyMcdade

    Truth seeker,   Are you bragging or complaining ??    You are the King’s Jester, And I suppose you are a HAPPY LIBERAL who likes things just as they are ???  It is fools like you that have brought this Grand Nation to her knees, and will not be happy till she Broke AND CONSTITUTION-LESS… You should BE ASHAMED of yourself for what you Liberals are doing.. And you claim to the tittle of Truth Seeker… I like The King’s Jester, it is more appropriate….

    • JuliB

      @RoyMcdade: This jerk is Richard J. Garfunkel, the paid liberal troll for ovomit’s administration. In case you haven’t noticed, he lies even when he talks in his sleep.

      • RoyMcdade

        @JuliB   Juli,   The best one can do with a ‘Fool On a Hill’ is to ignore him as he gets his satisfaction on trying to show his (aledged) superiority while trumping a Conservative.. He claims everyone else spews hate while he is the monger.. He is either to damn STUPID to realize how sotero has screwed up this Nation or, like someone else said “Has his head too far up his butthole to see where he is going”…

        • JuliB

          @RoyMcdade: I know, I just always make it a point to call him out by his real name so people can recognize him for the troll that he is. Have a good evening, sir!

      • RoyMcdade

        @JuliB  I would imagine that considering how Corrupt he is, he has to sleep with one eye open… He is so repulsive , I turn him off anything when he speaks… He is such a liar…

  • RoyMcdade

    Davi,   I really don’t think the People have the time, money or direction to start another Party, altho it would probably be the best thing. What really concerns me is sotero’s plans in the NEXT FOUR years ?. Just how far does he plan to take this Socialism during these years ? Will he EVEN attempt a coup to Rule this NATION after these four years, throwing away the Constitution and Bill of Rights ?? Just BE PREPARED. REALLY PREPARED, For at least six months, without any gas, food, water, etc….

    • KGib12

      @RoyMcdade The white house’s foreign policy of appeasement will allow us to get nuked. If we get nuked, martial law will follow as will our Constitution go out the window! I expect it in his last year in office!

      • RoyMcdade

        @KGib12     KG,    And don’t forget his promise to the Russian when he thought the mike was off, ” Tell Putin to wait till after the election, I will be more flexible “…. Our Nation currently has about 2,000 nuclear warheads, he was referring to Putin’s request to lowering our warheads further down to 300… This is Treason and if for NOTHING else should be KICKED OUT OF OFFICE just for that remark….

        • WadeLeeHurdleSr

          @RoyMcdade  @KGib12 TRUE but we don:t have any one with any Balls in Washington DC

        • RoyMcdade

          @WadeLeeHurdleSr  @KGib12    And that includes All of Congress,  the WH,  apparently the Courts… Iy is just soooo Disgusting HOW LOW the Country has gone down since FDR….

      • WadeLeeHurdleSr

        @KGib12  @RoyMcdade I hope so Obama will take the USA we need to IMPEACH this A$$ H$$$ and the Democrat Party be for it to late

      • GrumpyOldMan

        @KGib12  @RoyMcdade If we get nuked, there will be no need for martial law.  Who are they going to preside over?  Everyone will be dead if not from the strike itself, then from the radiation.
         
        Also, if you want to see what life will be like, look at what happened in New York and New Jersey from a little storm.  People have no idea how to live without fuel and electricity. Housing and above all else GOVERNMENT doing everything for them.  If there are any survivors it will be self assured, gun loving bible thumping conservatives.  We will finally get rid of all the fleas called Liberals/Progressives!

    • redskin45

      @RoyMcdade and WHO will stop him????   Not the cowardly American people…..as I said before the election…..this election is like lambs to the slaughter if obama wins and he did win and people get ready for the abbatoir……you are dead!   It’s not like nobody told you what he was about before the election……

      • RoyMcdade

        @redskin45    You are correct good buddy, but there are more reasons..  They truly need to reduce populations to a more sustainable and controllable number which IS IN THEIR PLANS, be it a War,  Major CHAOS when there is no longer food in the stores. and possibly  finish the balance of “Terrorists ” with their Chem-trails.. Or even Vaccines……. WHO KNOWS.??? BUT IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, ONE DAY, SOONER OR LATER..Be Prepared with sufficient supplies to last at least 6 months…

    • redskin45

      @RoyMcdade this country needs a third party…..the Constitution Party….made up of people who believe the Constitution is the governing instrument……politics be damned…..Americans need to get back to basics…..Tea Party go away as you are useless!

      • RoyMcdade

        @redskin45    I agree, but we shuld have started talking another Party back in 2008.    In my opinion, besides lack of time and organizing, it would be wise to try to take over the Repub Party  and give the Conservatives at least a fighting chance  to win the election…. But before anything Voter Fraud MUST BE eliminated, or All will be for nought…

  • gabryel

    Make the country bankrupt, break the people, make some promises, the sheep will follow, then write a new constitution. R.I.P. America

  • redskin45

    could one of you liberal dimocrats explain to me the good that this president is doing because I just don’t get it!  I can not figure out why he is bent on spending money that doesn’t exist and why he ignores the Constitution.  Call me crazy but it sounds to me like he hates this country and what the Constitution means and is determined to destroy all that WAS the United States of America…..somebody please explain…..thanks

  • redskin45

    he waves his grinchy pointer and the whole country follows….ie tackle football…..all of a sudden the liberals want to change the way tackle football is played…..it’s pathetically humorous!  HE’S LAUGHING AT YOU PEOPLE!  You let him have the power…..it’s backwards!

  • redskin45

    why doesn’t anybody ever mention cutting welfare, food stamp, Section 8 housing, disability spending?   Why does the president always threaten seniors and military and children?   He is a coward!   He has created 2 classes in this country…..the Welfare Class and the Wealthy!

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @redskin45 Because his is a communist, foreigner, and hates everything about the United States.  As a Muslim, he sees his role as that of the Destroyer In Chief and hopes to become the Caliphate when he’s through.

  • SugarB

    How can we have a balanced budget if there is no budget to balance?  Obama’s intent is to destroy the economy thus the USA.

  • gabryel

    The first black president will not get impeached, this country will not allow that and it will not allow him to fail. That is why the elections are rigged, that is why the media has a love affair with President Barry. I don’t understand why a supposed 13% of this country has so much power. I employ and have employed people of all races and got along with them just fine with one rule work and produce ya got a job. No production see ya. 
    hey redshin45 tell me why a polition looks into the t.v. and says to our military thanks for your service………….
    then cut funding to the military, then forget about these men and women to help them in housing and services.
    How an some one do that and look in the mirror every day?
    Why can’t welfare people clean up the cities, pick up trash for you check instead of watching the jerry Springer Show
    no we have volenteers to do that on the weekend. Once agaiin the private sector will take care of it.
    Go see how many section 8 live, there was an old saying a bar of soap don’t cost much.
    When too much is given to a person they do not respect it, when you work for it you get the pride of ownership…

    • Sparkle58

      @gabryel You are so right…I live in a small town in the South…wkd at Health Dept..so 1st hand view of exactly what you have said…gimme gimme gimme!!!  I grew up (thank my God too) when my Granny saved Octagon soap wrappers, etc…but all of this made me realize the importance of self reliance, good work ethics.  We lived on major Hwy. in that day, was nothing for me to take a plate of food out to (we called them tramps then) one sitting in the back yard, I learned to respect others.  If you were in jail, it was called the “Chain Gang” granddad wrkd there…..they were out cleaning up litter EVERY DAY, it was clean….they were not given everything a lot of people do not have in their homes this day & age!!  We do not send them to jail to be punished for crimes any longer, we treat them like royalty…who is to blame for that???  As a result the economy here is bad….the welfare ratio is huge here…they DO NOT want to get out & search for a job….we pay them to sit on porches & play checkers & grill out….who in the heck would want to work….NO WORK ETHICS!…NO RESPECT FOR OTHERS NOT PROPERTY OF OTHERS….NO FEELINGS W/REGARD TO HUMAN LIFE!  Look at all of the bad weather wise, fire wise, etc that has occurred all over the world….God is still in CHARGE!…..How long will it be before he comes back, no one knows but the route we are headed down would make you think sooner rather than later.  If we do not throw this batch of elected officials out of office in WA….we are doomed…..J. Boehner just lays down & allows them to walk all over him (US)…get him out, bring in new life…..someone w/integrity, loyalty, love of America & the guts it takes to stand up to the ones that are ruling the US now.  Pelosi, Reid, Holder, Jarrett are just a few that need to be removed….lets get started.  If we do not put God, the Bible & Constitution back in their proper place God Help US!!   The land of Plenty is now the land of Empty!  I wish I was a man for the 1st time in my life…..

      • RoyMcdade

        @Sparkle58  @gabryel   C’mon,   The Best Sniper in the world was a Russian woman who killed more than 600 (!!!) Germans. Remember, everything has a Time and place, being a woman is NO handicap, If anything an asset..  I really have little faith in this sorry ass race we have today with ALL their cowardly symbols, slogans and refusal to stand up to bullys.. But… I do not forget that the 1776 Revolution was fought by only 3 % of the colonists… And Won…    Today it will be much , much  more difficult with possibly millions of people dying..But if IT IS NOT DONE, WE, BOTH SEXES, CAN expect NO mercy and ALL of our Freedoms will be gone forever…

        • RonaldChristopher

          @RoyMcdade  @Sparkle58  @gabryel Actually, it was 309 enemy kills, not 600.

        • RoyMcdade

          @RonaldChristopher  @Sparkle58  @gabryel    You sound like a Nice Guy Ron, even intelligent.., I was making the point about this woman having confidence in anything she has decided to do to preserve this Country…. So what is a few Hundred , was she NOT the best Sniper in the history of Sniping ??  But anyway , Thanks for the correction… Oh, are you sure of it being only 309 ????  Check your numbers, Thanks again…

        • RonaldChristopher

          @RoyMcdade  @Sparkle58  @gabryel Pyudmila Pavlichenko was her name and yes, 309. However, nobody else was close.

        • Sparkle58

          @RoyMcdade  Thank you for that, I think we get a lil bit of a raw deal sometimes, but as Mamas**you earn**that Bulldog tenacity re:your babies & you never ever lose it…I so appreciate you not selling us short..

        • RonaldChristopher

          @RoyMcdade  @Sparkle58  @gabryel Stupid fingers. That is supposed to be: Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RonaldChristopher  @RoyMcdade  @Sparkle58  @gabryel Women can shoot better than men as a general rule.  Don’t know why but it’s a statistical fact.

        • Sparkle58

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher  @RoyMcdade  @gabryel The first time my youngest son & I went out to shoot my Bursa 380…he was taken back a bit…I just love it!!!   Thank you!!

        • gabryel

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher  @RoyMcdade  @Sparkle58
           I better be nice to my wife:)

        • Sparkle58

          @gabryel  @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher  @RoyMcdade My oldest son would say “you dang Skippy”…!!!:)

        • RoyMcdade

          @RonaldChristopher  @Sparkle58  @gabryel Sir:  you are correct and thank you for the time verifying…

      • gabryel

        @Sparkle58
         Well I am proud to say I live near the murder capital of the U.S.A. CHICAGO!!   actually about 40 miles outside of it. I have a friend that works downtown north side,he has told me there are actually people who think that there job is to make babies. Yes they say that’s my job and that is why I get’s me a check every month……………………

        • Sparkle58

          @gabryel Gotcha…..I know there are Mamas & Grandmama’  who encourage that in their daughters or grands……it is called beat the system.  Did you see the Dad in Hotlanta that had11 kids & 10 different mamas & they (thank goodness) were removed from having a show on tv.  Disgusting…each one bring in mo money to the household & if you ask about the daddy, (he don’t stay there).  Those are the ones I resent, there are deserving cases as well & is not fair to lump them as a whole but I liked Newt’s idea of at the end of 3 mos. & no job….you are off!!  A bit of that enforced would get some attention but that is* prolly Tuna Pelosi would say UnAmerican!!!

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @gabryel  I’m sorry.  Have you thought about moving?  To somewhere decent people reside?

        • gabryel

          @GrumpyOldMan
           can you tell me where that might be?

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @gabryel Well, if you stay away from places on the East coast that have beaches on the Atlantic, and away from places on the West coast that have beaches, or rocky shores on the Pacific, and away from the North coast which have beaches on any of the Great Lakes, I’d say you will probably find the place that’s better than where you are now.

        • gabryel

          @GrumpyOldMan
           How about Pikes Peak, the veiw is great

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @gabryel Yes the view is great.  Spectacular.  But I wouldn’t want to live there. Atmosphere too thin, temps too cold, and season too short for motorcycle riding!

    • agbjr

      @gabryel Obama ain’t black he’s what used to be called mulatto. I just call him a lying Marxist sonofabitch … that should cover it.

      • gabryel

        @agbjr
         That is a word we are not supposed to use:)………..
        Why is it that these mixed raced people, well the black parent takes off and the white raises them yet they will tend to show loyalty to the black parent. You see this happen in celeberties as well..

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @gabryel  @agbjr Hitler was exactly the same.  He honored the missing father above everyone else.  With OBozo, we don’t even know who his father is.  No documentation.  Isn’t that convenient? There is more evidence to suggest he isn’t even a citizen of this country than there is evidence that he is.

        • Sparkle58

          @GrumpyOldMan  @gabryel  @agbjr Maybe his last name is Davis…

        • gabryel

          @Sparkle58  @GrumpyOldMan  @agbjr
           I belive davis is correct the white socialist grandparents.

        • Sparkle58

          @gabryel  @GrumpyOldMan  @agbjr Is a shame when he was running for the office of President that no one bothered to ck the web….tons of info is there for the world to see but Pelosi just said oh fiddle, he is ok…let him in!!!

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @gabryel  @Sparkle58  @agbjr OBozo’s grandparents were real honest to God card carrying members of the Communist Party in America.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @gabryel The first black person residing in the White House has already failed.  And so has America for turning its back on the Constitution.  When I was in the military it was just another job. The main difference was that Congress decided not to support the military at that time, and haven’t had the cajones to support military personnel since.  Then we get a draft dodger for a president and it’s gone down hill from there. The men and women who make up the military are the true 1% of this country that have proven where their loyalty lies.  Unfortunately, that loyalty is not returned.

      • gabryel

        @GrumpyOldMan
         I was not in the military and was fortunate enough to not be old enough for Nam.
        I believe that in politics you should not have the right to be commander and chief
        unless you yourself were in the military. In other words you could only get as high
        lets say as a congressman. i always felt if you were not in battle what right could you
        possible have to say to some else you go fight. That has to be an earned right.

  • matforce

    After 30 years of record low marginal tax rates (see historic tax rates below) it is time for all of us to place our shoulder firmly and strenuously to the wheel in an all out a effprt save this nation from insolvency. Yes, that especially includes the wealthy who’ve especially benefitted from tax relief http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-17/how-to-pay-no-taxes-10-strategies-used-by-the-rich and those corporations who have evolved into “multinationals” who have benefitted from and estimated $350 BILLION in loopholes, credits, exemptions, write-offs, while they park their $5 TRILLION in profits in offshore accounts to escape USA taxation.  It’s like paying taxes to the Greatest nation on earth is for chumps!
     http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2010/02/04/historical-marginal-income-tax-rates

    • RoyMcdade

      @matforce  There is NOTHING wrong with taxing the Rich…. Who are they supposed  to tax, the POOR and ALREADY OVERTAXED Middle Class. ??? This is where the Repubs and I go in different directions… The Rich have had their LOBBYISTS in Wash buying them all the gratuities and favors money can buy from politicians…Now we know this country needs it, so , go AFTER THE RICH AND GIVE US MIDDLE CLASS A BREAK… AND WHO KNOWS, MAYBE IF THE RICH ARE PICKING UP THE TABS THEY JUST MAY REDUCE SPENDING….. JUST MAYBE…

      • matforce

        @RoyMcdade
         Agreed, Roy!  But given the entrenchment of BIG $$$ in the halls of congress: Citizens United vs the Federal Election Commission, Super PACs, money is speech, “Corporations are people, my friend,” chances are slim that the commoner’s voice will be heard or legislation passed that will benefit the masses. When all you care about is blind capitalism and profit, our Plutocrats will wring every last red cent out of this nation until they run it into the ground, if our elected officials, who are beholden to them and their lobby $$$, allow it.

        • RoyMcdade

          @matforce   The only other option is is demanding that our Nation be returned to the People, peacefully or otherwise. The longer we take to “protest” the better prepared  (TANKS, AUTO WEAPONS, AMMO, ETC) he will have.  I have thought about this MANY times.   He is building an Army of his own and now having our soldiers swear allegience to HIM and not the Country….   Hell, he is holding Military drills in our Major cities NOW..    HE WILL CALL MARTIAL LAW, IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHEN… ARE YOU REALLY PREPARED….. ??

  • mariner

    this country is going to hell in a handbasket—VERY quickly.  And that jerk-wad n***er in the White House is leading the way.  Why in the world are people putting up with it?  Free phones?  Something needs to be done to eradicate the people in government…and that includes both parties.  They don’t represent anyone but themselves and their bottom lines………………………

    • RoyMcdade

      @mariner   Hey Guy,,     Don’t shine on sotero Re: those free phones… Just say someone in his admin wanted to orchestrate the looting and mob violence in the streetsand thereby avoiding any problems… This guy has every free cell phone user in the country’s  name and phone #… And you know damn well those people will do Exactly as he REQUESTS….RE: this dictatorship, I think the People have drawn the line on restricting our 2nd  Amendment. When/ IF that happens  I suggest hooking up with ” some people locally” and discuss a plan of action……

  • CaptTurbo

    We have no representation in government. I do NOT consent. Do you?

    • the Truth Seeker

      @CaptTurbo Captain Turdo- who cares whether you consent?

  • boldyaug

    Our present government has no intentions of cutting down their deficit- -instead the hidden intention is to sponge as much $ as possible from the middle and upper class taxpayers for their agendas, until there is no longer   a middle and upper class-  and we eventually resemble Stalin’s form of communal government in about 50 or so years from now as we share living quarters with quadrillions of illegal immigrants.

    • the Truth Seeker

      @boldyaug  Your predictions are foolhardy and not representative of the facts.  We have had and will not have any connection to Stalin or the Soviet Union. That specious ans spurious metaphor is unsupported by anyone, but a small group of fearful, uninformed marginal folks.

  • RonaldChristopher

    The truth seeker asked what right one has lost, challenging I believe another’s comment about loosing rights. I think the truth seeker has led a sheltered life. The government, at the lowest level can do about anything it wants and to hell with your rights. Have you ever had a search warrant issued to you? Have you checked the warrant to make sure it is a valid warrant? Was the warrant obeyed, only seeking out what was on the warrant? That is just a small issue where rights have been violated. Every hear of Miranda rights. They have to be given if you are under arrest but a lot of times they are not given and the courts do not care. Want me to go on?

    • the Truth Seeker

      @RonaldChristopher I am well read on Miranda and quite familiar with the Father of Miranda, University Professor Yale Kamisar’s writings and lectures on the subject. You can read his piece on this link to the Washington Law Review. http://www.law.washington.edu/wlr/ . The greatest opposition to Miranda came from Nixon, and Chief Justices Burger and Rehnquist. When you read the 80 pages, check in with me.
       
      As to the Democratic Congress that took office in 2007, the recession, the housing bubble and the slippery slope had began to happen. It wasn’t a Democratic Congress that cut taxes, didn’t fund the 2 wars and soften SEC regulation. it wasn’t Democrats who paid off the ratings agencies; D & B, Weiss, S & P, etc. It for sure wasn’t Democrats that created derivatives and debt swapping instruments. And for sure it wasn’t Democrats who were running Countrywide Financial and its clones who were writing 84% of the unregulated mortgages.  Read the Barry Ritholtz piece on the “real” cause of the Bush 43 Housing downfall leading to the Great Recession.

      • the Truth Seeker

        @RonaldChristopher
        Examining the big lie: How the facts of the economic crisis stack up By Barry Ritholtz, Published: November 19
        It’s fair to say that our discussion about the big lie touched a nerve.
        The big lie of the financial crisis, of course, is that troubling technique used to try to change the narrative history and shift blame from the bad ideas and terrible policies that created it.
        Based on the scores of comments, people are clearly interested in understanding the causes of the economic disaster.
        I want to move beyond what I call “the squishy narrative” — an imprecise, sloppy way to think about the world — toward a more rigorous form of analysis. Unlike other disciplines, economics looks at actual consequences in terms of real dollars. So let’s follow the money and see what the data reveal about the causes of the collapse.
        Rather than attend a college-level seminar on the complex philosophy of causation, we’ll keep it simple. To assess how blameworthy any factor is regarding the cause of a subsequent event, consider whether that element was 1) proximate 2) statistically valid 3) necessary and sufficient.
        Consider the causes cited by those who’ve taken up the big lie. Take for example New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s statement that it was Congress that forced banks to make ill-advised loans to people who could not afford them and defaulted in large numbers. He and others claim that caused the crisis. Others have suggested these were to blame: the home mortgage interest deduction, the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, the 1994 Housing and Urban Development memo, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) and homeownership targets set by both the Clinton and Bush administrations.
        When an economy booms or busts, money gets misspent, assets rise in prices, fortunes are made. Out of all that comes a set of easy-to-discern facts.
        Here are key things we know based on data. Together, they present a series of tough hurdles for the big lie proponents.
        •The boom and bust was global. Proponents of the Big Lie ignore the worldwide nature of the housing boom and bust.
        A McKinsey Global Institute report noted “from 2000 through 2007, a remarkable run-up in global home prices occurred.” It is highly unlikely that a simultaneous boom and bust everywhere else in the world was caused by one set of factors (ultra-low rates, securitized AAA-rated subprime, derivatives) but had a different set of causes in the United States. Indeed, this might be the biggest obstacle to pushing the false narrative. How did U.S. regulations against redlining in inner cities also cause a boom in Spain, Ireland and Australia? How can we explain the boom occurring in countries that do not have a tax deduction for mortgage interest or government-sponsored enterprises? And why, after nearly a century of mortgage interest deduction in the United States, did it suddenly cause a crisis?
        These questions show why proximity and statistical validity are so important. Let’s get more specific.The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 is a favorite boogeyman for some, despite the numbers that so easily disprove it as a cause.It is a statistical invalid argument, as the data show.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher
          For example, if the CRA was to blame, the housing boom would have been in CRA regions; it would have made places such as Harlem and South Philly and Compton and inner Washington the primary locales of the run up and collapse. Further, the default rates in these areas should have been worse than other regions.
          What occurred was the exact opposite: The suburbs boomed and busted and went into foreclosure in much greater numbers than inner cities. The tiny suburbs and exurbs of South Florida and California and Las Vegas and Arizona were the big boomtowns, not the low-income regions. The redlined areas the CRA address missed much of the boom; places that busted had nothing to do with the CRA.
          The market share of financial institutions that were subject to the CRA has steadily declined since the legislation was passed in 1977. As noted by Abromowitz & Min, CRA-regulated institutions, primarily banks and thrifts, accounted for only 28 percent of all mortgages originated in 2006.
          “•Nonbank mortgage underwriting exploded from 2001 to 2007, along with the private label securitization market, which eclipsed Fannie and Freddie during the boom. Check the mortgage origination data: The vast majority of subprime mortgages — the loans at the heart of the global crisis — were underwritten by unregulated private firms. These were lenders who sold the bulk of their mortgages to Wall Street, not to Fannie or Freddie. Indeed, these firms had no deposits, so they were not under the jurisdiction of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp or the Office of Thrift Supervision. The relative market share of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac dropped from a high of 57 percent of all new mortgage originations in 2003, down to 37 percent as the bubble was developing in 2005-06.
          •Private lenders not subject to congressional regulations collapsed lending standards. Taking up that extra share were nonbanks selling mortgages elsewhere, not to the GSEs. Conforming mortgages had rules that were less profitable than the newfangled loans. Private securitizers — competitors of Fannie and Freddie — grew from 10 percent of the market in 2002 to nearly 40 percent in 2006. As a percentage of all mortgage-backed securities, private securitization grew from 23 percent in 2003 to 56 percent in 2006.”
          These firms had business models that could be called “Lend-in-order-to-sell-to-Wall-Street-securitizers.” They offered all manner of nontraditional mortgages — the 2/28 adjustable rate mortgages, piggy-back loans, negative amortization loans. These defaulted in huge numbers, far more than the regulated mortgage writers did.
          Consider a study by McClatchy: It found that more than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending. These private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year. And McClatchy found that out of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006, only one was subject to the usual mortgage laws and regulations.
          A 2008 analysis found that the nonbank underwriters made more than 12 million subprime mortgages with a value of nearly $2 trillion. The lenders who made these were exempt from federal regulations.
          A study by the Federal Reserve shows that more than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions. The study found that the government-sponsored enterprises were concerned with the loss of market share to these private lenders — Fannie and Freddie were chasing profits, not trying to meet low-income lending goals.
          Beyond the overwhelming data that private lenders made the bulk of the subprime loans to low-income borrowers, we still have the proximate cause issue. If we cannot blame housing policies from the 1930s or mortgage tax deductibility from even before that, then what else can we blame? Mass consumerism? Incessant advertising? The post-World War II suburban automobile culture? MTV’s “Cribs”? Just how attenuated must a factor be before fair-minded people are willing to eliminate it as a prime cause?
          I recognize all of the above as merely background noise, the wallpaper of our culture. To blame the housing collapse that began in 2006, a recession dated to December 2007 and a market collapse in 2008-09 on policies of the early 20th century is to blame everything — and nothing.
          Ritholtz is chief executive of FusionIQ, a quantitative research firm. He is the author of “Bailout Nation” and runs a finance blog, the Big Picture.Procurator

        • RonaldChristopher

          @the Truth Seeker WOW. They missed it. Jimmy Carter (democrat) started the housing bubble which killed this nation. He demanded banks lend money to those who could not pay it back. Along came Bill Clinton and demanded that banks lend everybody money which included those who could not pay it back. Clinton threatened banks that if they did not abide by his desires, they would suffer at the hands of the federals. So the banks did as Clinton wished. Then along came Bush and he orally warned the democrat congress, 17 times about the coming problem but democrat Franks (the queer) informed congress that all was well. His lover was getting quite a hunk of money from Fannie.
            So, please do not tell me that the democrats had nothing to do with it when they had everything to do with it. They were up to their necks in the whole smear. You are seeking the truth. You got it. Please do not respond with anymore of who wrote what. If you do not know something by your own accord, you know nothing by others’ accords. You spelled out your background earlier. Well, I am retired US Army (1978). I am a Ranger Combat Veteran of Vietnam. I am a former counterintelligence agent. I am a former federal investigator. I am a former police officer (academy grad). I am a paralegal. I have written and have had 5 books published. The one I am presently working on is how stupid Americans are. You have a whole chapter.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher Again, you are totally off the mark with that dream scenario. There is no evidence that it started with Carter. Did you forget the Reagan-Bush 12 years in between Clinton? Maybe you should have gone back as far as FDR and the FHA and the GI loans for housing. Your smear of Carter holds no water and is typical of the inaccuracies that are rife here. Start all over and get back to what you know, blowing away people. Seems like the 400 historians that make up the Sienna College Presidential POll disagree completely with your analysis.
           
          The Siena College Research Institute (SRI) Survey of U.S. Presidents is based on responses from 238 presidential scholars, historians and political scientists that responded via mail or web to an invitation to participate. Respondents ranked each of 43 presidents on a scale of 1 (poor) to 5 (excellent) on each of twenty presidential attributes, abilities and accomplishments. Overall rankings were computed by assigning equal weight to each of those twenty categories. For additional information about the survey visit http://www.siena.edu/sri/research or contact Professor Tom Kelly at 518-372-7890 or Dr. Douglas Lonnstrom at 518-783-2362.
           
          From the text: George W. Bush, had entered the survey at 23rd when the study was last conducted one year into his first term. Today, just one year after leaving office, the former president has found himself in the bottom five at 39th rated especially poorly in handling the economy, communication, ability to compromise, foreign policy accomplishments and intelligence. Rounding out the bottom five are four presidents that have held that dubious distinction each time the survey has been conducted: Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, and Franklin Pierce. Andrew Johnson leads the ‘worst ever’ in both abilities and accomplishments finishing below both Buchanan and Harding, but Harding tops the worst in personal attributes including integrity where he finishes just slightly ahead of Richard M. Nixon.
           
          That’s not me – General, its 238 top American historians from the whole political spectrum!

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RonaldChristopher  @the Truth Seeker I want to read that chapter.  It should be very entertaining.  And you are correct by the way. It did start with Carter, and Janet Reno was the one who threatened the banks with the full force and fury of the Justice Department.  Then OBozo further destroyed the whole thing by refusing to allow the banks to foreclose on the deadbeats and insisting people be allowed to live in the houses they couldn’t afford for free.  Democrat is synonymous with idiot.  Republicans are quickly lowering themselves to the same level.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker Look up “Community Reinvestment Act” and see who signed it Truth Avoider!  That was Jimmy Ca-a-a-a-arter and that was indeed the beginning of the housing collapse.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @GrumpyOldMan How you can connect that to the housing collapse is a miracle of the time, space and energy continuum. That was decades before it came to fruition . Obviously you will believe everything from Area 51 having creatures from UFOs to the Moon being made of green cheese. There is no reasonable person that could draw that conclusion. In between Carter, whose administration created 10 million jobs, there were 40 million more jobs between Reagan and the end of Clinton Administration,Are you aware of how many mortgages were written. The vast majority of toxic mortgages were written between 2001 ans 2007, no matter what you say or believe. I suggest you go to Cypher , Pa where I was raised, long before the storm clouds came in and, above all else, check out the housing records there from 1976 through 2006. That town is a good place to start.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker You are a moron.  I suppose the wheel didn’t result in the wagon, which didn’t result in the horseless carriage.  I truly feel sorry for people as moronic as you.  If brains were gunpowder you wouldn’t have enough to even blow your nose!

        • the Truth Seeker

          @GrumpyOldMan Again, you connecting the wheel to the wagon and therefore; to the wheel of green cheese, which you believe is the Moon, is hilarious.Your cause and affect theory is unique if it wasn’t so peculiar.
           
          You have a right to be grumpy, because you have to live with yourself,  look in the mirror once in a while and have contact with other humans. See the Last Angry Man, the next time it is on TMC.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker Did you meand “cause and effect”?  Your great education is showing again.  Yes, progress takes place by one thing leading to another.  Has been that way since the beginning of man.  What species are you? Chimpanzee maybe?

      • RonaldChristopher

        @the Truth Seeker You are absolutely sure that you are correct in what you say. I would suggest you stop reading what democrats have written and do some soul searching as to what America’s problem really is. I will not argue with you about what you believe I would simply say, Pray.
         What America really needs to do is abolish the party system.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher Now we should pray? You must have forgotten the WWII song line, “praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.” The abrogation of the “party system” reflects incredible naivete. There are political parties all over the world and we have had them here from day one. And who do you suppose will end the party system? Maybe a right wing dictator.?

        • RonaldChristopher

          @the Truth Seeker No, God will. And if you do not believe in God, then you are a part of the death of America. If you do believe in God then I would suggest that you get with your democrat party and have them get on their knees and become humble before God. Remember the dem platform at their convention. they wanted God out of it.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher Are you for real! Jimmy Carter and the housing bubble?95% of the bad mortgages were written in the Bush 43 first 6 years, There were hardly any bankruptcies that reached back into the Clinton Era, and you cited Carter. Sorry the facts and the reality do not fit that scenario. Cite some evidence about Frank and reflect how conveniently you forgot Lehmann Brothers, Bear Stearns and the other firms who went bust bundling worthless mortgages as having values. Bad mortgages have always been with us, and Countrywide wrote most of them. You maybe what you are, but that doesn’t allow you to beg the issue of history. I’ll put Ritholtz up against you any day of the week.   Playing the God card isn’t going to get you intro heaven or deprive anyone else.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RonaldChristopher  Ronald, why are you still arguing with this fool, liar, imbecile and troll (truthseeker).  He makes up his own facts and numbers then finds someone just as dumb as he is for citations that put the same talking points and myths on the internet.  It’s pointless.  He’s a lost cause.

        • RonaldChristopher

          @GrumpyOldMan I agree. He should look up “Housing and Community Development Act of 1977. I’ll no longer respond to him. I try to help some but in his case, lost cause.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher By the way “Last Angry Man” I didn’t make up the long piece by Bruce Bartlett. Maybe in your jaundiced, bigoted mind he is a commie? I have no blindness and my perspectives have been long developed over a productive life inside and out of business. If you want to indulge in hatred and appease the rich who could care less whether you live or die, so be it. Accusing people of lying is an old tactic used by totalitarians and their supporters.

    • the Truth Seeker

      @RonaldChristopher Haven’t heard your follow up on Miranda? Maybe you’ve been served? I haven’t had the pleasure- too clean maybe! That’s why we have lawyers. We have a society that encourages a lot of white collar crime, and the records involving Wall Street are rife. Maybe the poor looks at what the rich get away with and want a part of the bling..

      • RonaldChristopher

        @the Truth Seeker I used to be a cop. Graduated from Coastal Georgia Police Academy. However, my being a cop means nothing to you as far Miranda goes because I am quite certain you know much more about it than I do. I was also a federal investigator but then again, I know nothing about Miranda like you do. What I do know is that you need to study, learn, because what you have done so far is yak your mouth like all liberals do. YIep, it was Carter who started the mess with housing and it was Clinton who really enforced it. All Bush did was warn Congress 17 times during his first few years what was going to happen and the democrats refused to listen, just like now. You refuse to listen to anybody. From what I have been reading on this blog, you is da master educator.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher  Looks like you are wrong, read piece by Bruce Bartlett, a true blue conservative. he seems to disagree with you assessment. In fact he wrote a book about, see the title below:
           
          http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/31/housing-bubble-crash-oped-cx_bb_0102bartlett.html  Part One
           
          Who Saw The Housing Bubble Coming? Bruce Bartlett 01.02.09, 12:00 AM ET
          The current economic crisis is raising many legitimate questions about the failure of economists and financial analysts to foresee the housing bubble and warn of its collapse.
          There were, in fact, many warnings dating back more than seven years–but in the euphoria of rising home prices, no one listened. As time went by and no crash occurred, many of those doing the warning lost credibility or decided that perhaps they were wrong and moved on to other issues.
          I first created a folder on the housing bubble back in 2001 and began collecting material on the subject. The very first piece I filed was an article from a September 2001 issue of Forbes called “What If Housing Crashed?” by Stephane Fitch and Brandon Copple. Read today, the article was remarkably prescient.
          Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan first addressed the question of a housing bubble in testimony before the Joint Economic Committee on April 17, 2002. He dismissed the idea–or, for that matter, any comparison to the stock market, which had recently gone through a high-tech bubble–on the grounds that housing was different because of substantial transaction costs and more limited opportunities for speculation.
          Greenspan also argued that there really wasn’t a single national market for housing, but rather a collection of many local markets. Even if a bubble emerged in one market, he said, there was no reason to think it would spill over into other markets.
          In June 2002, I filed a report by economist Ed Leamer of UCLA noting that the ratio of home prices to rent was rising rapidly and that this represented a kind of price to earnings ratio for the housing market.
          Like the stock market’s P/E ratio, when it rises rapidly above historical norms in a short period of time, it’s is a good sign that there is a bubble–and that it could burst quickly.
          But in March 2003, Greenspan continued to deny the possibility of a housing bubble. In a speech to the Independent Community Bankers of America he said that any comparison between the housing market and a stock market bubble was “rather a large stretch.”
          Greenspan repeated his view that one could not generalize about the national housing market from other possible bubbles in a few isolated markets. He went on to argue that there was no evidence of excess supply in newly constructed homes and that the rate of housing starts was consistent with the growth of incomes and population.
          Despite Greenspan’s assurances that there was nothing alarming, it was apparent that a number of local markets, especially in California, were experiencing bubble-like conditions, with prices rising to clearly unsustainable levels. UCLA’s Leamer proclaimed that a bubble definitely existed in the Los Angeles and San Francisco real estate markets in a June 2, 2003 report.
          In September, economists Karl Case and Robert Shiller presented a very detailed analysis of the housing market to the Brookings Institution’s panel on economic activity.
          While conceding that economic fundamentals were favorable to rising home prices, they also noted that there were elements of bubble psychology in the housing market. Case and Shiller pointed to an increase in the buying of real estate for investment purposes and high expectations of housing price increases.
          They also observed an increasing sense of urgency and opportunity among home buyers, who were plunging into real estate for fear of being left behind as they perceived their friends and neighbors growing richer–classic signs of a bubble.
          By 2004, concerns about a housing bubble were pervasive throughout the popular media. But responsible authorities continued to throw cold water on them.
          For example, in February, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation denied the existence of a housing bubble. It noted that there had not been a decline in national housing prices since the Great Depression. Advances in the structure of mortgage finance since that time, the FDIC concluded, made any repeat very unlikely.
          The first report I have pointing to the potentially disastrous effects of a collapse in housing on financial institutions came from economist Paul Kasriel of Northern Trust on July 30, 2004. He noted that 60% of banks’ earning assets were mortgage-related–twice as much as was the case in 1986.
          If the housing market were to go bust, Kasriel warned, the banking system would suffer significant damage. And since the banking system is the transmission mechanism between the Fed and the economy, any serious downturn in that sector could make monetary policy impotent, thus pulling down the entire economy.
          That same day, however, I received a report from Bear Stearns economist David Malpass arguing that the housing market was healthy and that much of the rise in prices simply represented a “catch-up” because they had lagged behind the rise in equity prices since the mid-1990s.
          The Bear Stearns report also noted that rising household formations, declining unemployment, low interest rates, a decline in the inventory of unsold homes and the 1997 cut in capital gains taxes on owner-occupied homes as other reasons for its continued optimism.
          In September, the International Monetary Fund called attention to the highly synchronized movements in housing prices internationally in its World Economic Outlook.
          This suggested that there was greater liquidity in the housing finance market than others had generally assumed. The IMF further noted that interest rates were unusually low and bound to rise at some point as central banks necessarily tightened monetary policy to fend off inflation.
          Indeed, the interest rate increases that had already occurred in 2004 were expected to sharply reduce the growth of housing prices in 2005, the IMF predicted.
          But in October, Greenspan was still saying that the housing market was nothing to be concerned about. In a speech to America’s Community Bankers, he pointed out that the vast majority of homeowners lived in their own homes–so if they sold one, they would have to buy another.
          Consequently, there was little possibility of a general downturn in housing prices. While Greenspan acknowledged that there had been some increase in home buying for investment purposes, this represented only a small portion of the overall housing market. And while there was evidence of a rise in debt service ratios, he nevertheless saw household balance sheets as being in good shape.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @RonaldChristopher  Part Two
           
          Greenspan’s view was shared by economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. In December, they directly addressed the housing bubble question. Their report’s bottom line? There was no bubble; housing prices were rising due to positive fundamentals and not from expectations of rapid price appreciation. And even if fundamentals turned negative, there was little likelihood that prices would drop significantly.
          I published my first column on the housing bubble on Dec. 15, 2004. In hindsight, I see that I was overly impressed by the views of Alan Greenspan and the New York Fed. But I did raise red flags about loans becoming too easy, the decline in down payments and the spread of adjustable rate mortgages.
          I concluded it would be “unwise to buy a house in the expectation of future price increases like those we have seen.” I advised every homeowner to get out of adjustable-rate mortgages and into a fixed-rate mortgage as soon as possible.
          I’m ending my discussion of this issue in 2004, but throughout the years since, a number of analysts have emerged on both sides of the housing bubble question. So I do not claim to be comprehensive in my review. I just wanted to call attention to a few of the more prominent analyses that crossed my desk when the housing bubble first caught my attention.
          There were many economists who did see it coming, but there were many others of equal or greater prominence and authority who repeatedly insisted that there was nothing to worry about. Under the circumstances, ordinary investors can hardly be faulted for taking actions that unwittingly fueled the bubble and are now having disastrous consequences for themselves and the nation.
          Unfortunately, it is in the nature of economic and financial forecasting that being right too soon is insignificantly different from just being wrong. And forecasters that are wrong when most of their community is also wrong never suffer for it. The trick is to be right just a little bit sooner than everyone else–but only a little bit.
           
          Bruce Bartlett is a former Treasury Department economist and the author of Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy. This is the first installment of his new weekly column for Forbes.com.
           
          Bruce Bartlett is a former Treasury Department economist and the author of Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy. This is the first installment of his new weekly column for Forbes.com.
           
          So your fight is with Bruce Bartlett and everyone else.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RonaldChristopher  @the Truth Seeker  You are right Ronald.  I’m a lawyer and I don’t know anything either, Miranda or otherwise…..except you can always find something somewhere in print to support your arguments no matter how stupid and ill informed they are.  “truth” seeker proves it every time he posts anything here.

  • the Truth Seeker

    Speaking of Taxes, fees, budgetary reality and the cost of labor!
     
    Fixed incomes are always vulnerable to “budget Creep.” The budget creep is contractual and trading or ameliorating raises for more benefits or some other perk just serves to kick the can down the road. In the so-called private sector, education costs on the post public school level are growing at rate above inflation, as health care costs.
     
    GROVER NORQUIST
     
    Taxes, Benefits, the Safety Net and the Republican Party
     
    In other words, in our capitalistic system, there are winners and losers, and neither the middle aged, white, blue collar, Tea Bag Brigade adherent nor the one-world, leaning-left idealist, who support OWS have any solutions that satisfy both ideological wings. Fees, user or the penalty type, punish the good, bad and the ugly. Our Republican friends want to do the impossible! They understand, very clearly, that labor costs are the core element regarding budget creep, and the growing dichotomy between the upper and lower middle classes. The well-off drive inflation and those incremental increases in costs are easy to absorb. Therefore, because of this inflationary squeeze, exacerbated by the incremental cost of government, the increasing cost of private sector services, driven by the well-to-do, who can afford to pay any increase, the ability to afford living in some neighborhoods, towns or regions is becoming virtually impossible for many citizens. On one hand, the GOP would like to shrink wages and benefits, but they conveniently forget that in a consumer-based economy, they are reducing the purchasing power of many Americans. As private sector unionization disappears with the exporting of jobs overseas, the last bastion of collective bargaining remains with the public sector unions.
     
    Something has to give. Should we just have a wealthy class, served by a low paying class of vassals, reminiscent of a Third World country? Should the Wagner Act be repealed? Should collective bargaining be eliminated? Something has to give! But, if one buys into the libertarian rhetoric of the current field of GOP presidential aspirants, one must also understand that safety nets; regarding working conditions, wages and hours, unemployment insurance, the minimum wage, sick leave, bereavement leave could be sacrificed. The era of defined pensions has virtually ended, and therefore even the financing of company sponsored 401K or 503B retirement plans could be left only for the top companies. Even the idea that health insurance, under the GOP, will remain as an option for employees is at risk. The private sector health care carriers continue to raise premiums and the businesses pass on these extra costs and a greater percentage of the premium. The Middle Class worker is faced with a co-premium of 25% and quite often a deduction of $1,000, with a business sponsored plan costing $16K, the average worker could be in $5000 in the “hole” before they could be reimbursed one dollar.
     
    Flat-taxers and their Wall Street front men on CNBC, FOX Business and Bloomberg talk of “broadening” the tax base. Of course, they mean rolling back the Bush “Trojan Horse” tax cuts and rebates for the lower middle class. The cynical GOP tax law-making, legislators by allowing 40-50% of all Americans to avoid paying any Federal Income taxes, aside from the pay roll tax, were able to give huge tax breaks to the rich. In this way the rich can constantly shriek that they pay the bulk of the taxes, because so many pay none! But, of course, the bulk of the deficits are in Medicare and SSI which is funded by the pay-roll tax, which is paid at a higher percentage by the worker and the self-employed. A person paying 8% in payroll taxes on an income of $106K income pays just 8%. But, anyone who earns more; let’s say $1 million, pays a lot less for the same “down-the-road” entitlement.
     
    It was a calculated approach to lock in both ends of the tax spectrum. They threw a tax-relief bone to the lower middle class and the working poor, of which, will be very difficult to remove. This threat of broadening the tax base (instituting a minimum tax) would be the threat the GOP could use against the Democrats if there is a move to raise the top bracket to 39.5% and stagger the capital gains tax, reflective of income. Maybe the first $100k should be taxed at 15%, but as income moves up to $100’s of millions, wouldn’t it be fairer to tax much of that extra income at a closer figure to 39.5%?
     
    Most of the so-called GOP tax “reformers” would want to bring back a minimum tax (which personally I can understand), a zero tax rate on capital gains and inheritance taxes, lower corporate taxes and a flat income tax of anywhere between 10 and 20%, without deductions. Who would that hurt? Obviously, the Middle Class and the working poor! The Paul Ryan acolytes would end Medicare and defund Social Security by offering an “op out” or privatization.  
     
    Unfortunately, these deficit hawks are not being too candid when it comes to deficits. Reagan’s tax “reforms” which created two brackets of 28 and 15% tripled the National Debt and created a tax climate that allowed a quadrupling of the number of American billionaires from a traditional number of 13, which existed for many years, to 40-50 within five years. There are now 400 billionaires in America and they own more equity in America than the bottom 150 million Americans. Also, there are 375K Americans making $1 million or more per year, and they are paying, amazingly, a lower tax rate than required by the Reagan Era laws. Even the six Wal-Mart heirs own more American equity than the bottom 30% of all American. These same folks want zero inheritance taxes.
     
    Does fairness matter? According to the Tea Bag troglodytes, tax fairness is either not understood, of it is not important, or it is un-American.

  • Hl McCloud

    Impeach this miserable excuse for a president obama before he bankrupts this country
    Wow what a national peice of trash this saucerlipped monkey faced basta-d has become.

  • Sparkle58

    Did I just hear we are sending money to help Brazil…..cough…..& we have people in NJ & NY that need help…Excuse ME!!  Maybe I did not hear that correct…….something is wrong in the wood pile!!!

    • gabryel

      @Sparkle58
       haven’t ya heard theres rats in the woodpile!

      • Sparkle58

        @gabryel Yep….& something is rotten in Denmark!!  & Birds of a Feather flock together!!!  & has a Cat got a Running Gear…hehehehe…

  • the Truth Seeker

    Again I was criticized for attributing the housing bubble to the Bush 43 Administration. I have cited articles by Barry Ritholts a recognized authority on the subject. Mr. Christopher, told me that he was a policeman and an expert on Miranda. he knows all the rulings and has read all the documents from Escobedo through Statute 3051 and its repeal of Miranda and how the Court ignored that law, and ruled in unconstitutional 30 years later. Now he swears that Bush warned of the housing bubble, but as the Chief Executive, had nothing to do with itsd regulation. But his Fed Chairperson Greenspan and others seem to be living in a fantasy world.
     
    Read this piece by Bruce Bartlett, Reagan appointee and staunch economic conservative and the author of a wonderful book.
    Bruce Bartlett is a former Treasury Department economist and the author of Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy. This is the first installment of his new weekly column for Forbes.com.
     
    Part I of the article. The let’s see who is telling the truth. Mr. Christopher or Bruce Bartlett.
     
    Who Saw The Housing Bubble Coming? Bruce Bartlett 01.02.09, 12:00 AM ET
    The current economic crisis is raising many legitimate questions about the failure of economists and financial analysts to foresee the housing bubble and warn of its collapse.
    There were, in fact, many warnings dating back more than seven years–but in the euphoria of rising home prices, no one listened. As time went by and no crash occurred, many of those doing the warning lost credibility or decided that perhaps they were wrong and moved on to other issues.
    I first created a folder on the housing bubble back in 2001 and began collecting material on the subject. The very first piece I filed was an article from a September 2001 issue of Forbes called “What If Housing Crashed?” by Stephane Fitch and Brandon Copple. Read today, the article was remarkably prescient.
    Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan first addressed the question of a housing bubble in testimony before the Joint Economic Committee on April 17, 2002. He dismissed the idea–or, for that matter, any comparison to the stock market, which had recently gone through a high-tech bubble–on the grounds that housing was different because of substantial transaction costs and more limited opportunities for speculation.
    Greenspan also argued that there really wasn’t a single national market for housing, but rather a collection of many local markets. Even if a bubble emerged in one market, he said, there was no reason to think it would spill over into other markets.
    In June 2002, I filed a report by economist Ed Leamer of UCLA noting that the ratio of home prices to rent was rising rapidly and that this represented a kind of price to earnings ratio for the housing market.
    Like the stock market’s P/E ratio, when it rises rapidly above historical norms in a short period of time, it’s is a good sign that there is a bubble–and that it could burst quickly.
    But in March 2003, Greenspan continued to deny the possibility of a housing bubble. In a speech to the Independent Community Bankers of America he said that any comparison between the housing market and a stock market bubble was “rather a large stretch.”

    • the Truth Seeker

      Part I
       
      Greenspan repeated his view that one could not generalize about the national housing market from other possible bubbles in a few isolated markets. He went on to argue that there was no evidence of excess supply in newly constructed homes and that the rate of housing starts was consistent with the growth of incomes and population.
      Despite Greenspan’s assurances that there was nothing alarming, it was apparent that a number of local markets, especially in California, were experiencing bubble-like conditions, with prices rising to clearly unsustainable levels. UCLA’s Leamer proclaimed that a bubble definitely existed in the Los Angeles and San Francisco real estate markets in a June 2, 2003 report.
      In September, economists Karl Case and Robert Shiller presented a very detailed analysis of the housing market to the Brookings Institution’s panel on economic activity.
      While conceding that economic fundamentals were favorable to rising home prices, they also noted that there were elements of bubble psychology in the housing market. Case and Shiller pointed to an increase in the buying of real estate for investment purposes and high expectations of housing price increases.
      They also observed an increasing sense of urgency and opportunity among home buyers, who were plunging into real estate for fear of being left behind as they perceived their friends and neighbors growing richer–classic signs of a bubble.
      By 2004, concerns about a housing bubble were pervasive throughout the popular media. But responsible authorities continued to throw cold water on them.
      For example, in February, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation denied the existence of a housing bubble. It noted that there had not been a decline in national housing prices since the Great Depression. Advances in the structure of mortgage finance since that time, the FDIC concluded, made any repeat very unlikely.
      The first report I have pointing to the potentially disastrous effects of a collapse in housing on financial institutions came from economist Paul Kasriel of Northern Trust on July 30, 2004. He noted that 60% of banks’ earning assets were mortgage-related–twice as much as was the case in 1986.
      If the housing market were to go bust, Kasriel warned, the banking system would suffer significant damage. And since the banking system is the transmission mechanism between the Fed and the economy, any serious downturn in that sector could make monetary policy impotent, thus pulling down the entire economy.
      That same day, however, I received a report from Bear Stearns economist David Malpass arguing that the housing market was healthy and that much of the rise in prices simply represented a “catch-up” because they had lagged behind the rise in equity prices since the mid-1990s.
      The Bear Stearns report also noted that rising household formations, declining unemployment, low interest rates, a decline in the inventory of unsold homes and the 1997 cut in capital gains taxes on owner-occupied homes as other reasons for its continued optimism.
      In September, the International Monetary Fund called attention to the highly synchronized movements in housing prices internationally in its World Economic Outlook.
      This suggested that there was greater liquidity in the housing finance market than others had generally assumed. The IMF further noted that interest rates were unusually low and bound to rise at some point as central banks necessarily tightened monetary policy to fend off inflation.
      Indeed, the interest rate increases that had already occurred in 2004 were expected to sharply reduce the growth of housing prices in 2005, the IMF predicted.
      But in October, Greenspan was still saying that the housing market was nothing to be concerned about. In a speech to America’s Community Bankers, he pointed out that the vast majority of homeowners lived in their own homes–so if they sold one, they would have to buy another.
      Consequently, there was little possibility of a general downturn in housing prices. While Greenspan acknowledged that there had been some increase in home buying for investment purposes, this represented only a small portion of the overall housing market. And while there was evidence of a rise in debt service ratios, he nevertheless saw household balance sheets as being in good shape.
      Greenspan’s view was shared by economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. In December, they directly addressed the housing bubble question. Their report’s bottom line? There was no bubble; housing prices were rising due to positive fundamentals and not from expectations of rapid price appreciation. And even if fundamentals turned negative, there was little likelihood that prices would drop significantly.
      I published my first column on the housing bubble on Dec. 15, 2004. In hindsight, I see that I was overly impressed by the views of Alan Greenspan and the New York Fed. But I did raise red flags about loans becoming too easy, the decline in down payments and the spread of adjustable rate mortgages.
      I concluded it would be “unwise to buy a house in the expectation of future price increases like those we have seen.” I advised every homeowner to get out of adjustable-rate mortgages and into a fixed-rate mortgage as soon as possible.
      I’m ending my discussion of this issue in 2004, but throughout the years since, a number of analysts have emerged on both sides of the housing bubble question. So I do not claim to be comprehensive in my review. I just wanted to call attention to a few of the more prominent analyses that crossed my desk when the housing bubble first caught my attention.
      There were many economists who did see it coming, but there were many others of equal or greater prominence and authority who repeatedly insisted that there was nothing to worry about. Under the circumstances, ordinary investors can hardly be faulted for taking actions that unwittingly fueled the bubble and are now having disastrous consequences for themselves and the nation.
      Unfortunately, it is in the nature of economic and financial forecasting that being right too soon is insignificantly different from just being wrong. And forecasters that are wrong when most of their community is also wrong never suffer for it. The trick is to be right just a little bit sooner than everyone else–but only a little bit.
      Bruce Bartlett is a former Treasury Department economist and the author of Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy. This is the first installment of his new weekly column for Forbes.com.

      • the Truth Seeker

        Of course, every one who questions the right-wing, the revisionist historians, and the lunatic fringe is a commie rat. Mr. Christopher (how ironic that his name, is the same name of the Nazi spy in the great film , “The House on 92nd Street.” but I am sure no one in Pa., would see the connection. ) attributes the Bush bubble to Carter. That’s a real hoot. Carter had to deal with the oil embargo, the hostage crisis and a lot of problems. He seemed inadequate to the task and the voters agreed. I happened to be a guest of a Congressman and was right in NY City Hall when Ken Taylor and all the hostages finished their ticket tape parade down the Canyon of Heroes. Read the piece by Bruce Bartlett and make up your own minds. He’s no liberal and is a staunch Reaganite.

        • the Truth Seeker

          More on Bartlett- he even worked for Ron Paul! No lies, this is his bio!
           
          In 1976, Bartlett changed careers, going to work for U.S. Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas). Bartlett spent much of his time working with the House Banking Committee, of which Paul was a member, which involved Bartlett in economic issues. Paul was defeated for reelection in November, 1976.
           
          In January 1977, Bartlett went to work for U.S. Congressman Jack Kemp (R-New York) as staff economist. Bartlett spent much of his time on tax issues, helping to draft the Kemp-Roth tax bill, which ultimately formed the basis of Ronald Reagan’s 1981 tax cut. Bartlett’s book, “Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action” appeared in 1981 (New Rochelle, NY: Arlington House Publishers). He also co-edited the book The Supply-Side Solution (Chatham, NJ: Chatham House Publishers, 1983).
           
          In 1978, Bartlett went to work for Perry Duryea, who was the Republican candidate for governor of New York. In November 1978, Duryea was defeated and Bartlett returned to Washington, where he joined the staff of newly elected Senator Roger Jepsen (R-Iowa).
           
          In 1981, Jepsen became Vice Chairman of the Joint Economic Committee of Congress and Bartlett became deputy director of the committee staff. In 1983, Jepsen became chairman and Bartlett became executive director of the JEC. During this period, the committee was very active in promoting Ronald Reagan’s economic policies.
           
          In late 1984, Bartlett became vice president of Polyconomics, a New Jersey-based consulting company founded by Jude Wanniski, a former Wall Street Journal editorial writer, that advised Wall Street clients on economic and investment policy. Bartlett left in 1985 to become a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, where he specialized in tax policy and was especially involved in the debate around the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
           
          In 1987, Bartlett became a senior policy analyst in the White House Office of Policy Development, then headed by Gary Bauer. In 1988, Bartlett left to become deputy assistant secretary for economic policy at the Treasury Department, where he served until the end of the administration of George H. W. Bush.
           
          After the end of the Bush administration, Bartlett worked briefly at the Cato Institute in 1993. From 1993 to 2005, Bartlett was affiliated with the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market think tank based in Dallas, Texas.
           
          Since 1995, he has written a newspaper column for Creators Syndicate, based in Los Angeles, and written extensively for many newspapers and magazines, including The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Fortune magazine, and Commentary magazine. He currently blogs at Capital Gains and Games.
           
          In 2005, the National Center for Policy Analysis fired Bartlett for his outspoken criticism of President George W. Bush.[3]
          In 2006, he published Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy (ISBN 0-385-51827-7), which is critical of the Bush Administration’s economic policies as departing from traditional conservative principles. He compared the second Bush to Richard M. Nixon as “two superficially conservative presidents who enacted liberal programs to buy votes for reelection.”[4]
          In an August 2007 The Wall Street Journal op-ed, Bartlett criticized the FairTax proposal as misleading and unlikely to simplify taxpaying.[5] Bartlett was especially critical of what he states are FairTax’s accounting tricks in rate calculation and proponent claims that “real investment spending would rise 76%” if their plan were adopted.[5] A sponsor of the plan, Representative John Linder acknowledged Bartlett’s point that the Church of Scientology had proposed a national sales tax, but said that the FairTax movement was independent of the Church of Scientology and Bartlett had confused them with the Scientology-affiliated Citizens for an Alternative Tax System.[6] Other sponsors of the plan were critical of Bartlett’s article claiming he used “red herrings” and provided false information on the plan and research.[7][8] In September 2007, Bartlett wrote an article for The New Republic,[9] where he continued his criticism of the FairTax, including his claim that the FairTax/national sales tax has its origins with the Church of Scientology. Bartlett restated information about the bill (“prebate” distribution method, i.e., rebate in advance) and what is included in the rate studies (prebate and government) that the plan’s proponents have disputed and claim are false.[10]
          In August 2009, Bartlett wrote a piece for the Daily Beast in which he attributed the global financial crisis and following recession to George W. Bush and Republicans, whose policies he claimed resulted in an inferior record of economic performance to those of President Clinton.[11] In the same editorial, Bartlett wrote that instead of enacting meaningful healthcare reform, President Bush pushed through a costly Medicare drug plan by personally exerting pressure on reluctant conservatives to vote for the program. Bartlett claimed that because reforming Medicare is an important part of getting health costs under control generally, Bush could have used the opportunity to develop a comprehensive health-reform plan and that “[b]y not doing so, he left his party with nothing to offer as an alternative to the Obama plan.”[11] Bartlett concluded:
          Until conservatives once again hold Republicans to the same standard they hold Democrats, they will have no credibility and deserve no respect. They can start building some by admitting to themselves that Bush caused many of the problems they are protesting.”[11]
          In his book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, Bartlett defends Keynesian economic policies, stating that while supply-side economics was appropriate for the 1970s and 1980s, supply side arguments do not fit contemporary conditions.[12] In an article for The American Conservative, Bartlett explains that after conducting research for the book, he “came to the annoying conclusion that Keynes had been 100 percent right in the 1930s,” that “we needed Keynesian policies again,” and that “no one has been more correct in his analysis and prescriptions for the economy’s problems than Paul Krugman,” a prominent Keynesian economist.[13]
           
          During an interview on CNN on August 19, 2011, Bartlett stated that presidential candidate Rick Perry “is an idiot, and I don’t think anybody would disagree with that.”[14] The comment was in reference to Perry’s earlier assertion that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke’s actions would be “almost treasonous” if the Federal Reserve were to engage in expansionary monetary policy before the 2012 election in order to stimulate the economy.

        • matforce

          @the Truth Seeker
          Just got back from running errends. I will probably spend a great deal of time looking into your posts and processing all you have layed out in these threads to get the full good of them.  I’m having difficulty figuring out how you have arrived at your conclusions, because you depict yourself as somewhat of an insider.  What happened?  Did you get shoulderred aside by the Plutocrats in their power play for a larger share?   Or are you one of us altruist dreamers who never learned to smile as you kill?
          Your grasp of the tangled web of issues that beset us is second to none.  You are super-perceptive in pointing out what is WRONG within our current malaise.  Now, for SOLUTIONS!  What do you see as some viable solutions to the fix our elite have wrought upon us?

    • matforce

      @the Truth Seeker
       I thought I was obsessing, slumped over my computer researching, researching…  You views are cohesive and claims tied to research and fact; very informed.  What are your thoughts on leveling tariffs and VATs on imports to protect our remaining manufacturing sector and level the playing field with sweatshop labor in nations whose human rights records are abysmal?  Those goods that originate from offshored manufacturing facilites that benefit nobody but the Plutocracy, Red China, and the “supposed” benefactors, the middle class and poor who, as some would allegate, benefit from cheap products flooding our shores daily in Maersk freighters with load capacities of 2.2 million train car sized “containers” to soak the USA and fleece an increasingly dependent (an addictive analogy) US consumer with a dwindling income?  Germany does this without so much as a raised eyebrow from the WTO, of which Germany is a member.  When such a move is even suggested, the blood curdling cries of “protectionism” go up (mostly from the GOP, free market existentialists, and the Plutocracy from whom the GOP take their marching orders) to scare the masses with scenarios of World War and international trade wars, etc.  But right now it looks like an attractive alternative to bleeding a slow but sure death…  Thoughts?

      • the Truth Seeker

        @matforce Unlike the over abundance of flat-earth thinkers who seek solace on these sites, there are folks who read this tripe and understand the “divide and conquer” nature and tactics of its authors and followers. The irony of this whole methodology is that the real 47%, the Romney folks are the 1% that are supported by the 46%.
         
        As for the divide between the so-called social conservatives and the economic “royalists” in FDR’s words, the paradox is that the monied folks don’t give hoot about their supporter’s values. They use contraception, the support choice, they seek out stem cell research, they are nominally religious, they rarely attend services, they support the separation of church and state, and they support the Fed, the SEC and certainly the markets. They basically want votes for low taxes and deregulation. As for the budget deficits, they care little. Many, like Romney shelter their money overseas. If he would have been running against a traditional GOP field, that fact about his holdings would have disqualified him immediately. By the way do you remember McCain, who divorced his first wife and married the Beer Baroness. He had so many houses and cars that he needed an accountant to tell us where they were.
         
        Read the front page of today’s NY Times and read the concern that the mainstream, monied class that runs the GOP, and funds the extremists for their votes, feels about the 2014 off-year elections.
         
        The problem of protectionism is that it has a very bad history, and the Smoot-Hawley Tariff imposition in the last period of the Hoover Administration, made things a lot worse. We do not want trade wars, we actually export a great deal, and at one time we were a net energy exporter. We may yet get there in the next 5-7 years. One of our problems is that efforts like the Keystone Pipeline could create massive environmental chaos. All of us want greater production of energy, but just ask why Canada is leery about building a pipeline to their Pacific Coast.
         
        The bigger problem is addiction to cheap Chinese goods and their American business partners and facilitators. China must float its currency and to keep a decent trade partnership, they must accept much more of our products. We are exporting to China, but we need a greater level of their cooperation.  With a more level playing field with China trade, more energy independence and greater natural gas exports along with oil from tar sands, we’ll be much better off regarding our balance of payment deficits.
         
        Americans must face certain realities, higher taxes here, greater outflow of dollars to China or higher prices here for domestic products. Paying higher prices for our own manufactured products will create more American jobs, more tax revenues and less budgetary shortfalls. The biggest problem at the moment is handling the baby boom and pre-baby boom demographic bubble. Once that happens,  by 2040, there will be a decline in the American population and it will be a majority of non-whites and mostly Catholic. That is the reality no matter what the doomsayers believe. The key is to Americanize all these folks!

        • matforce

          @the Truth Seeker
          In regard to tariffs; how does Germany do it?  They manage a decent GDP, while sustaining an advantageous import to export ratio, promotes or allows for their high wage, highly unionized workforce to pump its disposable income back into their economy.
          I have arrived at the conclusion that the key for USA solvency is jobs for a more prosperous middle class, a tax code that requires eveyone put their shoulder to the wheel (including the elimination of loopholes and perhaps a lower corporate tax rate), curtailing the current $600 BILLION avg. trade deficit/yr., get our financial house of cards off of its addiction to slave labor derivatives.
           
          Ever since the advent of offshoring our jobs to the four winds, it appears that even our financial house of cards has become dependent on slave labor derivatives, so that to compete, Corporate USA has to hire CEOs and members on its executive teams from the realm of business and finance that know how to cook the books and post good short term numbers while liquidating assets and spinning off whole divisions to keep stocks up, ultimately undermining a solid foundation.  If I’m correct, do you think it would be out of the question for one or the other of our political parties or the press to raise national awareness of the necessity for stockholders to stand still for a short term hit to retool our national economy, to benefit later with long term solvency.  Who could be trusted to get a message like that out to a nation holding its breath for Wall Street brokers to post the numbers daily on their investment porfolio?

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @matforce  Why not eliminate the corporate income tax?  Corporations, being an artificial entity doesn’t really pay taxes anyway.  When a tax is levied on a corporation it is passed on to a human. Either stock holders pay it in the form of reduced dividends, customers pay in in the form increased prices, or employees pay it in the form of reduced wages.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @GrumpyOldMan  @matforce That’s about as flat headed as anything could suggest. Why don’t we then outlaw corporations and make everything partnerships and tax the partners on regular income.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @the Truth Seeker  @matforce Only a TOTAL idiot thinks they can tax their way to prosperity.  But we know from previous posts you more than qualify for that title “truth” seeker.

        • the Truth Seeker

          @GrumpyOldMan  @matforce Sorry jerk- we had high taxes from FDR through Kennedy, needed them to pay for WWII, the fight against communism , the highway system and a myriad of other things, Reagan’s low taxes gave us high debt, more gaps between rich and poor, and a crumbling infrastructure. Low taxes, reflected low spending and created problems in housing, education and transit.
           
          Corporations have been getting welfare for decades and in the most important and powerful country of the world they have to pay their fair share. Where did you get your diploma from the College of Hard Knocks.  Your black and white assumptions are inane and reflective of a black and white mind, if one could call the empty space between your ears a mind, no less a brain. Of course, you can function and go to the bathroom, but your mental skills take a sharp dive from there. No one is proposing draconian taxes and on the other hand we cannot afford more giveaways to the rich. Even the Founding Fathers who outlawed primogeniture were against large fortunes and feared the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few. Good monetary policy goes along with sensible fiscal policy. Single directed arm chair faux economists, like you fancy yourself, don’t know their arse from their elbow about our economy no less our history.
           
          Again simplistic nostrums from an obvious simpleton. Too bad there are few monarchies left, because the need for a Court Jester have declined. Maybe that’s why you are out of work.

        • RonaldChristopher

          @GrumpyOldMan  @matforce Hey Grump have you noticed that everybody who talks to the Truth Seeker is a dope or flat header or something like that. Besides, he apparently is the Truth Seeker yet seeks nothing. He sounds like obama to me. Just read another of his blogs and now you are a jerk. Wow, if I were you guys I would sincerely listen to—— The Truth Seeker. He would not know the truth if it jumped out in front of him and laid one up along side his head. Might I suggest he begin with Isaiah 9:10.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @RonaldChristopher  @matforce Yeah, I have noticed that. I’ve also figured out he will be “seeking” forever because he won’t recognize or accept the truth when it slaps him up along side the head.  At least he hasn’t so far.

        • NJSB

          @the Truth Seeker  @matforce
           Time to get over thr “rich and poor” who’s keeping score crap already! We’re all in this and I personally can’t stand Obama as president or politician and we’re stuck with him and change would have been good for all. Speaking of money he has no clue what to do with it and after four years Noone can use President Bush one or two or any other past one for the mess we’re in  ow. This mess is all about the greed of men, not wanting to listen to the ones who know what they are talking about when it comes to money. Obama had no clue about anything responsiblity wise when he became president and he still doesn’t and he hasn’t kept one promise and now has a whole new ajenda to run on so those of us who don’t remember the first ones can only be dissapointed by the ones he doesn’t do this time around. Just watch him now, the money thing will not get any better and we will just keep getting our taxes raised the same thing the stupid democrats said only the republicans want to do. You people need to get out there and vote to make a difference on the 28th of this month or whenever your spring elections are. Quit Whining and do your part one vote can make a difference

        • matforce

          @NJSB  @the Truth Seeker
          To say something to the effect of “just get over it” is a very simplistic, callous view in light of what is happening to our great nation after 30 years of policies that continue to tear America the Beautiful apart to benefit the top.
           
          To me, the massive jobs exodus, begun in the 60s, with an offshoring model shared in board rooms and business conferences across America, and perfected by the 90s with the FTAs allowing our manufacturing sector to be offsored with the blessing of our legislature (liabilities incurred in the setting up of manufacturing facilities on foreign soil was actually subsidized with tax dollars, rewarding offshoring of jobs), and these products imported, tariff-free, to soak the USA and fleece an increasingly unemployed/underemployed middle class consumer with less and less disposable income, and coincidentally, less and less taxable revenue, all to provide larger profit margins for the top, the bi-product of which has enabled China to draw even with the mighty USA in just 10 years (China joined the WTO in 2001).  The USA has gone from steady trade surpluses before 1975 to trade deficits that have averaged at least $600 Billion/yr over the last 10 years. That, plus the great wage disparity that has occured over the past 30 years has consolidated wealth at the top like we haven’t seen since the days of the Robber Barons a century ago. Maybe there are those who think that there’s something wrong with a USA that promoted all of its citizens’ prosperity, but I don’t; it’s smart business. A middle class with disposable income will bolster retail sales and crank up the economy (that is if this increased production actually increased demand for increased production in our USA factories and thus, paychecks into USA workers like it used to do before the offshoring of jobs.)
           
          Even so, during the past 30 years real output in the business sector grew by 140% (admittedly, some of this increase was due to automation, etc.). Real compensation per hour (includes wages, benefits, pensions, and health insurance) increased by only 38% for the middle class worker. Post WWII, 1947-1979 America shared equally in the increase in output. During those years the increase that the bottom 20% received was 116%, the top 20% got an increase of 99%, and the middle quintiles increased somewhere within that range. Then the world flipped! From 1980 to 2007 the rich took practically all the increase in income. Over those decades, the poor received only a 15% increase and the middle three quintiles got a 25% increase, while the top 20% got a 95% increase and the top 1% received a raise of close to 300%. Tax policies that favor the top is another matter that has consolidated weath at the top and elevated investment money to “untouchable” status (see marginal rates of the Eisenhower and Kennedy era). That combined with trade policies have put us in a real bind.  To me the key is for the USA to return the vitality of the middle class consumer market, “demand side” because suppy side, trickle down hasn’t worked.
           
          Look into it for yourself and do some research, man!  This issue you think is mere squabbling, is THE issue that has been bringing the USA to the point of insolvency.  Your solution seems to be vote GOP.  They are the ones who would speed our demise.  I would be the first to agree that there are those from the ranks of the poor who are taking advantage of the welfare provisions, but that is small potatoes compared to the damage being done by our elite and the corporate welfare that amounts to over $340 BILLION/yr.

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher
           Seriously, Grumpy and Ronald?  In view of the overabundance of information (even the provisions of the authors so as to lead you by the hand in case you wanted to check the validity of his claims with research), this is the best you could come up with?  If you want to refute these claims, the least you could do is provide your rationale and give equal and opposite researchable claims to contradict it.
           
          I have come to the realization after voting GOP for 30 years (March 2011, was the turning point for me) that they will use deceptions like a type of kicking the hornets’ nest of social issues including but not limited to: reproductive rights, Evangelical Christians, gun rights, homosexuality, race, sable rattling, and a myriad of alleged “personal freedom infringement,” a type of fear mongering and the use of practiced cries of panic and outrage to divert their base’s attention away from the fact that their first and only true love is to the top, who are using their influence in our legislature to turn America the Beautiful, land of opportunity, into a mere Plutocracy. They have pitted us, one against another with this fear mongering, fanning the flames of our worst human instincts, inciting divisions along party lines, socio-economic lines, and racial lines to keep their base’s attention diverted from the fact that they serve only the top. When this can no longer be denied, the GOP will be in big trouble with the electorate, because they will feel used like yesterday’s newspaper and “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,” or an electorate that realizes they’ve been used to craft their own demise.

        • matforce

          @GrumpyOldMan  @RonaldChristopher
           meant to say, “sabre” not sable…

        • the Truth Seeker

          @matforce  @NJSB Great points- the regulars here are beyond the pale. All they do is deny, accuse anyone who disagrees with their far out views of being commies, see social change as the root of their problem, but forget to read what Wall Street has, done what Reagan and the Bush Twins wrought and ignore the incredible transference of income. I am off this site, but I saw your response. This is an excerpt from a piece I wrote and submitted here before:
           
          In the Wall Street Journal’s Executive Pay Listing of April 12, 2004, all the Fortune 500’s top executives had their sources of income published. How ironic and fitting that this report should come out on the anniversary of FDR’s death, who understood quite intimately how poorly financial institutions monitor themselves, the need for transparency, and how greed drives our plutocratic “economic royalists.”  
           
          Salary and Bonus- some selections: Freeport-McMoRan-CEO- $5,540,000 in 2003 with $10M in stock options and $50M more in potential options, Merrill-Lynch-CEO- $28M in 2003 with $37M more in unrealized stock options, Time-Warner-CEO, $9.5M and $11.6M in stock options with another $18.9M in unrealized options.  Also the front page of the NY Times’ Business Day section, bonuses top $41.4 million at troubled Interpublic for its executives. With Federal taxes at 35% for anyone over $300,000 per year they should cry? This compensation is way out of control. Where did they get all of their stock? They didn’t buy it!
           
          Some critics of pay ratios, say formulas that exclude options are useless. “Usually it’s a charade,” says Mr. Alan Johnson of Johnson & Associates, managing director of pay consultants in NY. He says, “…employees see through it. They know the CEOs are making millions on stock, so limiting them on salary means nothing. It is a PR gimmick.” (The Wall Street Journal). It is a known fact that in and around 1970, CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies made in real dollars a ratio of 43 to 1 over the average salary of their employees. In real dollars, wages, taking in account inflation over the past 34 years or so, have gone up slightly. In other words, the $17,000 of 1970 is not worth much more than the $35-40,000 of today. Of course times have changed, and our economy has shifted greatly over the last 30 or so years. Our manufacturing has shifted to overseas, and we are much more of a service economy today. No question “freer” trade has brought more total prosperity to America. But where is that prosperity concentrated and what will be the affects. In that light, executive compensation is now 1000 to one! In “real” and tangible 1970 dollars, the average Fortune 500 CEO was making $731,000. By the year 2000 that same corporate CEO’s compensation went to between $35 and $40 million. While his worker’s income doubled in 30 years, their real income barely kept pace with inflation. But the corporate executive had his income go up 52 times. Inflationary worries were obviously not a factor. Besides all that good news, the top income tax bracket was reduced by Ronald Reagan and his buddies at Treasury.
           
          So we have seen what has happened. The GOP/Right has encouraged the lowering of taxes, the conglomeration of industry, the exporting of jobs overseas, the deregulation of industry, and the accumulation of greater money in fewer hands. Now, as in 1929, less people own more of America! In the midst of this incredible increase in executive compensation, Ronald Reagan’s administration lowered the highest tax brackets by more than 60% from 71% to 28% in 1986, while raising the bottom tax rate from 11 to 15%. In reality the Reagan Administration created two tax brackets. The poorest earners paid up to 15% and multi-millionaires paid a little more than double? Did this increase revenue to the Treasury? No! No wonder we experienced record deficits. Did it increase wealth to the wealthiest? Yes! Recent articles have debunked the “urban myth” promulgated by the flat-taxer’s and other anti-tax groups that tax cuts increase revenues. In fact, tax cuts without expense reductions create greater deficits. With that in mind, the Reagan years offered some of the biggest deficits, (tripling the National Debt), continued high unemployment, averaging over 7% in his tenure, and great private sector increases in wealth.
           
          Of course it’s always lies and liberal propaganda!

        • matforce

          @the Truth Seeker  @NJSB
           Yes, I did see this earlier post.  You have eloquently laid out a very detailed and unsettling account about exactly what is and has taken place in the USA to bring us to this point.  I wish that your antagonists were right and it was all just lies and liberal propaganda or a nightmare we could wake from, but unfortunately, it is all true.  My hope is; we can pull together and realize what needs to be done to turn this growing Plutocracy back into the USA I knew and grew up in.

        • GrumpyOldMan

          @matforce  @RonaldChristopher Matforce there are two Republican Parties.  The Social Conservatives is one. The fiscal Conservatives is the second.  The only thing the two have in common is maintaining whatever power they hold, and do what they can to increase that power.  I dumped the Republican Party after witnessing the Tampa fraud where Pee Wee Prebutts disenfranchised legitimate state delegates and replaced them with his own.  That was the final straw for me.  I’m now a Libertarian.  They (we) believe in fiscal responsibility and personal freedom and liberty.
           
          I believe the majority of Americans are Libertarians.  They just don’t know it.  Most, who are still capable of rational thought are for a balanced budget.  Most are for personal liberty, but not for paying for someone else’s poor decision making.  I haven’t voted for a Democrat since LBJ was president and I saw what he did.  I will no longer vote for a Republican for a major office and I didn’t last November.  Obama didn’t “win” the election.  The Republicans Party gave it away!

  • the Truth Seeker

    Wall Street Compensation, Our Near Meltdown
    and
     Who Speaks for America
    Part I
     
    In 2008, every one was running around in a dither wondering what is happening to our financial house, or is it house of cards? Of course, the simple answer is greed, and how does Wall Street satiate that greed? One of the easiest ways to make an incredible amount of money and keep it is to become the Chairman of the Board of a Fortune 500 company. But that alone doesn’t guarantee platinum parachutes at the end of one’s corporate tenure. You don’t even have to be successful. Just look at the records of recent beneficiaries of corporate send-offs, Ms. Carly Fiorina, who after almost destroying Hewlett –Packard was sent off to be an economic advisor to John McCain with a bank-roll in the scores of millions. She of course, for a short moment, was being considered for vice-president on his ticket. Unfortunately after not being chosen, the scorned woman decided to tell the truth, and in an interview she stated that Sarah Palin could not be a CEO of a major Fortune 500 firm. When she realized her faux pas, she quickly amended her remarks to include John McCain. Of course since “there is many a truth said in jest,” her honesty really did hurt, and she has been declared persona non grata by the Steve Schmitt/John McCain campaign machine.
     
    But to be more current, yesterday Washington Mutual, a bank holding company, whose stock had traded as high as $45 per share collapsed. The stock had dropped in mid-September to as low as $2.00 and the price finally settled at 16 cents this week. The Chairman Kerry Killinger stepped down in June, but remained as the Chief Operating Officer. This month he was forced to resign because of pressure from the investors and Alan H. Fishman, a former CEO of the Sovereign Bank was named to head Washington Mutual on September 8, 2008. The depositors were not happy with what was going on and a massive run on their banks ensued as customers withdrew almost $17 billion in less than two weeks. Secret negations were started after the Office of Thrift Supervision seized the bank and placed into the hands of the FDIC. The negotiations over this past weekend proceeded and JP Morgan Chase became the new owner. The new CEO Alan Fishman, who was flying to Seattle when the transfer was consummated, was now out of job. He had held that position for 17 days, and for his time and effort he received a $7.5 million up front payment and a cash good-bye present for $11.6 million. As George Gershwin once said long ago, “Nice work if you can get it!”
     
    So where does that money come from? Well for sure a good chunk of it comes from the boards of trustees at many of these firms who want to first ingratiate themselves with the company’s new “top dog” and later on, if he/she fails wish to rid themselves of these characters as painlessly as possible. Usually as a requirement to these “golden parachutes,” a written non-disclosure, and non-compete statement is a must. Quite often though, many of these “top-bananas” eventually select their own “cronies” as members of the board. These “grateful” trustees feel obliged to therefore shower excess compensation as a heartfelt expression of “thanks.” On the other hand, stock options being executed at the right market timing bring countless millions to the “golden parachute” beneficiary. Of course what better way to execute valuable options than to inflate the stock with non-existent assets of worthless paper on the books?  Please note that when an initial public offering (IPO) hits the market, the inside folk, the CEOs, and other officers, have already been allocated millions of shares, while quite often, their employees were left out.
     
    I recall vividly when John Hancock went “public” and the CEO David D’Alessandro was allocated millions of shares. Were the Hancock employees offered any stock? No! Were the Hancock employees offered any of the IPOs? No! Of course, D’Alessandro did an excellent job for Hancock, but he increased his own salary, making himself one of the highest-paid executives in financial services. His compensation of more than $21 million in 2003 placed him 79th on Forbes’s list of best-paid CEOs and increased debate at John Hancock over discrepancies between CEO compensation and shareholder returns. What else is new?

    • the Truth Seeker

      Wall Street Meltdown Part II
       
      There are many, many stories out there on Wall Street and four years ago I wrote some of this piece about executive compensation. Often it has nothing to do with whether the company makes money, but most assuredly it is connected to whether the stock goes up. Ironically the public and the shareholders find out after the fact that the stock was run up on false assertions, pumped up figures, and cooked books. Also over the years, executives have tried to liquidate their massive holdings in an effort to cash in before the public is completely aware impending revelations. Most shareholders would be startled to see the company’s executives selling their own stock. In truth, the average stock investor has his/her holdings mostly in mutual funds, and has no idea when one of the companies, which make up that fund, has experienced an executive’s excessive sale of stock. Just look at what we are witnessing today with companies like Bear-Stearns that reached a high water market price of $172 per share. We all should wonder how many executives were bailing out as the stock began to slide in the year before its final collapse. Unfortunately in a great many of these situations, many of the employee 401K pension funds were overloaded with company stock, not unlike Enron and other recent collapses. These company pension accounts disappeared along with the demise of the parent corporation.
       
      In the summer of 1969, I was a junior analyst with Bache & Co., which offices were located at 40 Wall Street. Right after I was employed, I was assigned to work with Ms. Mary DeSapio, whose sector, among others was transportation, which included railroads and railroad cars. My responsibility was to write evaluations of companies like St. Louis Car (closed in 1973) and its parent company General Steel Industries. This was the dullest, slowest and one of the worst sectors to cover on Wall Street. Ms. DeSapio had a young intern who tracked her stocks. I had heard through the office “grape vine” that she had made her reputation by discovering the emerging stock, the Indonesian company Natomas Oil. In those days Natomas was selling at more than 100+ times its earnings and when I had arrived the stock was in the mid 150’s. In talking to her young intern I found out that Ms. DeSapio still had a huge position. Coincidently, I read a story in US News and World Report that the top Natomas executives were liquidating huge amounts of stock. Being a good scout, I went to Ms DeSapio, a single wren-like woman in her forties, and mentioned the story I had read. She seemed startled that I brought up that stock. Maybe she was not happy that I had learned of her connection to that speculative company. When her initial surprise calmed down, she informed me that executive-selling didn’t indicate anything, and curtly cut off our conversation. Despite her dismissing of my information, knowledge is still king, and in that pre-Internet era, I believed that I had found something interesting that may have had potential value. Ms. DeSapio in her arrogant and condescending manner attempted to demean the value of that news and seemed offended that I would bring up her pet project. Within a few weeks the Natomas stock “tanked” dramatically, and if she didn’t sell her position, she was really burned. It wasn’t long after that meeting that she was fired. Eventually, in 1970, Wall Street experienced a huge recessionary problem of unusable leases to cope with the pre-computer backlog of “paper” that was generated in 1968 and 1969. Thousands were fired, including yours truly. Bache was eventually acquired by Prudential Insurance in 1981 and the 101-year old Bache name disappeared until it was brought back and re-branded in 2007.
       
      In the Wall Street Journal’s Executive Pay Listing of April 12, 2004, all the Fortune 500’s top executives had their sources of income published. How ironic and fitting that this report should come out on the anniversary of FDR’s death, who understood quite intimately how poorly financial institutions monitor themselves, the need for transparency, and how greed drives our plutocratic “economic royalists.”  
       
      Salary and Bonus- some selections: Freeport-McMoRan-CEO- $5,540,000 in 2003 with $10M in stock options and $50M more in potential options, Merrill-Lynch-CEO- $28M in 2003 with $37M more in unrealized stock options, Time-Warner-CEO, $9.5M and $11.6M in stock options with another $18.9M in unrealized options.  Also the front page of the NY Times’ Business Day section, bonuses top $41.4 million at troubled Interpublic for its executives. With Federal taxes at 35% for anyone over $300,000 per year they should cry? This compensation is way out of control. Where did they get all of their stock? They didn’t buy it!
       
      Some critics of pay ratios, say formulas that exclude options are useless. “Usually it’s a charade,” says Mr. Alan Johnson of Johnson & Associates, managing director of pay consultants in NY. He says, “…employees see through it. They know the CEOs are making millions on stock, so limiting them on salary means nothing. It is a PR gimmick.” (The Wall Street Journal). It is a known fact that in and around 1970, CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies made in real dollars a ratio of 43 to 1 over the average salary of their employees. In real dollars, wages, taking in account inflation over the past 34 years or so, have gone up slightly. In other words, the $17,000 of 1970 is not worth much more than the $35-40,000 of today. Of course times have changed, and our economy has shifted greatly over the last 30 or so years. Our manufacturing has shifted to overseas, and we are much more of a service economy today. No question “freer” trade has brought more total prosperity to America. But where is that prosperity concentrated and what will be the affects. In that light, executive compensation is now 1000 to one! In “real” and tangible 1970 dollars, the average Fortune 500 CEO was making $731,000. By the year 2000 that same corporate CEO’s compensation went to between $35 and $40 million. While his worker’s income doubled in 30 years, their real income barely kept pace with inflation. But the corporate executive had his income go up 52 times. Inflationary worries were obviously not a factor. Besides all that good news, the top income tax bracket was reduced by Ronald Reagan and his buddies at Treasury.
       
      So we have seen what has happened. The GOP/Right has encouraged the lowering of taxes, the conglomeration of industry, the exporting of jobs overseas, the deregulation of industry, and the accumulation of greater money in fewer hands. Now, as in 1929, less people own more of America! In the midst of this incredible increase in executive compensation, Ronald Reagan’s administration lowered the highest tax brackets by more than 60% from 71% to 28% in 1986, while raising the bottom tax rate from 11 to 15%. In reality the Reagan Administration created two tax brackets. The poorest earners paid up to 15% and multi-millionaires paid a little more than double? Did this increase revenue to the Treasury? No! No wonder we experienced record deficits. Did it increase wealth to the wealthiest? Yes! Recent articles have debunked the “urban myth” promulgated by the flat-taxer’s and other anti-tax groups that tax cuts increase revenues. In fact, tax cuts without expense reductions create greater deficits. With that in mind, the Reagan years offered some of the biggest deficits, (tripling the National Debt), continued high unemployment, averaging over 7% in his tenure, and great private sector increases in wealth.

    • GrumpyOldMan

      @the Truth Seeker How is that new diet working for you?  The one you’re on now where your lips are firmly planted around OBozo’s a-hole so food can’t get past to your stomach? It certainly hasn’t slowed down the excrement you output.

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